Now I know what its like to play against me
 

Roughly 25 people left in a Ub $100. I have a slightly less than average stack of 28k with the blinds at 400/800 with some normal sized ante. I make it 2k in MP with 1010 and a very aggresive BB calls me. He has me slightly covered. Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB checks. Whats your plan?

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

black TT?

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I probably throw out about a 2/3-pot size bet (3k-ish I assume?), and fold to a c/r. You have enough money to make this move, and you'll be left with enough if you get forced off the hand.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

no club.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I am thinking you are afraid of a checkraise. I bet out 2500-3000 but I am a fish what do I know. If he raises me I think of pushing as he almost never has the king on that spot. If he flat calls I have reevaluate on the turn.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

check, raise any turn

edit: saw you didn't have a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], make that raise any non-club. if its a club, it depends on what his action is. if he checks i'm betting any turn card.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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I probably throw out a 2/3 - 3/4 size pot bet, and fold to a c/r. You have enough money to make this move, and you'll be left with enough if you get forced off the hand.

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An integral part of the plan is the why. There's no why in your answer.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

Heads up against an aggressive opponent. If you had top pair or better I think you'd check the flop hoping he'd lead out on the turn. If he's a thinking and aggressive player, if he bet the flop I think he raises assuming you wouldn't play a good hand that way.

So, I'd check the flop. Probably call a reasonable turn bet.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

wow, bunches of options here.

If he's super aggressive then I don't mind throwing out 3k and pushing if he checkraises you to like 8-10k. It seems that most aggressive players would reraise preflop w/ any decent K. Esp against you (were you being you?)

are we in the money?

Another line could be to check behind and raise the turn bet that's coming if it's not an AJQ. I probably like the flop line better assuming you are not going to lay down to a checkraise. Tough spot though.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

the only thing that sucks about calling a turn bet is that on ub, its almost always just a betpot. and you hate to have to just call that on both the turn and river.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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If he's a thinking and aggressive player, if he bet the flop I think he raises assuming you wouldn't play a good hand that way.


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wouldn't this be a reason to bet the flop (i.e. he's assuming you are weak and wouldn't bet top pair that way) so that you can push if he chrasies you?

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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Esp against you (were you being you?)


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I was playing a little calm for me (which means opening 1.5 times an orbit or so mostly from LP). Still one of the most aggresive people at the table. It was the first time I had raised his blinds.

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are we in the money?


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just. money started at 30.

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Another line could be to check behind and raise the turn bet that's coming if it's not an AJQ

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We also have clubs to worry about.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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I probably like the flop line better assuming you are not going to lay down to a checkraise.

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imo, having to get your chips in when faced w/ a c/r is why i wait till the turn to evaluate.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

Raising the turn is obviously a more than reasonable line as well. I think I'm impartial to either. I would just be trying to play this like I had a bigger hand than I do.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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I probably throw out a 2/3 - 3/4 size pot bet, and fold to a c/r. You have enough money to make this move, and you'll be left with enough if you get forced off the hand.

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An integral part of the plan is the why. There's no why in your answer.

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Right, my bad. Clearly you have to be afraid of the check/raise from the aggressive BB, but he has to believe if you're throwing out 2/3 of the pot after a pre-flop raise, there is a good chance you have the K (or that the K doesn't scare you). A check/raise bluff is only good if you can feel comfortable your opponent is weak, which would be hard for him to do with that K out there. So my thinking would be he would need a legitimate hand to raise you with, in which case I would gladly lay down 10-10.

If, on the other hand, he just calls - well then the hand becomes a little trickier to finish out. *Edit* I should point out that I think this is one of the weaker points of my game. I often find myself checking behind on the turn, and then folding to the inevitable pot-size river bet in this situation.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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the only thing that sucks about calling a turn bet is that on ub, its almost always just a betpot. and you hate to have to just call that on both the turn and river.

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Every time he had bet the turn, he had pushed the river, and I expected this hand to be no different, if he bet the turn and I called. Stupid bet pot button.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

Well,
If this guy is truely "very aggressive" and we've seen him make 2 non-aggressive plays wouldn't it make sense to put him in monster/crap land. And hense try to play a small pot.

I could see myself trying to take down the pot now with a standard 1/2-3/4 pot bet. And then hopefully checking behind on the turn. Worst case scenario is getting called and bet into on a crappy turn (in this case I probably fold)

OR

I could see myself checking behind here and calling/betting any decent turn (no JQA or c) and checking/folding any crappy turn.



I pick the top line because I've seen the guy complete a smallish opening bet and check to me (hense I think he may fold)


I'm guessing you get cr-ed by something like A4c.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

This is why I bet the flop and push any smallish raise. The only thing that would suck is if he flat calls and a blank comes because now you don't know if he is slowplaying a king or a flush draw. If a scare card comes at least it is easier to fold in this spot.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I think your are interpreting more betting room than exists. If he's going to raise the flop I would expect it generally to be all-in. I have a hard time believing he would make a small cr with the plan of folding to a push.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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This is why I bet the flop and push any smallish raise. The only thing that would suck is if he flat calls and a blank comes because now you don't know if he is slowplaying a king or a flush draw. If a scare card comes at least it is easier to fold in this spot.

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He probably wouldnt slowplay a K given the flush draw.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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the only thing that sucks about calling a turn bet is that on ub, its almost always just a betpot. and you hate to have to just call that on both the turn and river.

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Every time he had bet the turn, he had pushed the river, and I expected this hand to be no different, if he bet the turn and I called. Stupid bet pot button.

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i hear ya. this is why i avoid taking a more passive line on UB when it would normally be ok on other sites. checking and then calling a turn bet is def not an option then.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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Well,
If this guy is truely "very aggressive" and we've seen him make 2 non-aggressive plays wouldn't it make sense to put him in monster/crap land. And hense try to play a small pot.
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I pick the top line because I've seen the guy complete a smallish opening bet and check to me (hense I think he may fold)


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fwiw, w/ these stacks, he's much more likely to c/r the flop than bet out w/ any type of hand, so i don't think you can use "he checked so he's weak" as an argument.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

yes he would if he is afraid of KQ or AK. Plus its heads up not a multiway pot.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I've started to ignore suits when heads up unless there are 3 on board. I feel that overall I get more value from my good hands than I lose when I let a flush get the somewhat cheaply or free.

If he is aggro the crux of my plan is to put in the last bet.

Aggro guys like betting thin, but not always calling thin.

Check and push his turn bet, if he checks the turn, I may check behind if its not a club and its not a broadway.

I may make a weak lead on the turn so I can get in the last raise, or just fold to his turn raise if I don't like the way it feels.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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If he's a thinking and aggressive player, if he bet the flop I think he raises assuming you wouldn't play a good hand that way.


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wouldn't this be a reason to bet the flop (i.e. he's assuming you are weak and wouldn't bet top pair that way) so that you can push if he chrasies you?

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Well, I think it's a balance between maximizing folding equity and giving him a free card. There's about 6k in the pot on the flop. If MLG bets 3k, a pot-sized raise would be to 15k and that's about half of MLG's stack. So I'd think that the villain might possibly just push and I really didn't want to face a decision of calling all my chips with TT there. If we call and he bets and then we push we've got some folding equity.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I think a lot of you have outthought this hand (granted, I could've easily underthought the hand). We raise from MP, get called by the BB who checks to us on a K-high, draw-heavy flop. I think he's given up a good % of the time and a bet of 3-3.5k will take it down enough to make it profitable. Our hand's not good enough to try to extract more here as there are 18 scare cards that could fall on the turn, so I hate checking behind here.

I fold to a c/r because we were an MP pf raiser and the flop came down K-high, so I doubt a c/r is a pure bluff, and most semibluffing hands have very good equity against us.

Many of you seem to disagree with me; how often does a "very aggressive" BB check a K here? How often does he c/r bluff here?

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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the only thing that sucks about calling a turn bet is that on ub, its almost always just a betpot. and you hate to have to just call that on both the turn and river.

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Every time he had bet the turn, he had pushed the river, and I expected this hand to be no different, if he bet the turn and I called. Stupid bet pot button.

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This tips me to calling the flop, pushing the turn (presuming he leads out). Calling the turn would no longer be an option. Push or fold.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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I think your are interpreting more betting room than exists. If he's going to raise the flop I would expect it generally to be all-in. I have a hard time believing he would make a small cr with the plan of folding to a push.

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so if you bet 3k and he raises to 9k, he's auto calling your remaining 23k? He would be getting about 2.7 so maybe so.
Would he really push if you bet 3k w/ a hand that you are losing to? The fact remains that he is unlikely to have you beat here on the flop, he is likely to raise your bet, you have plenty of scare cards to worry about, so I would try to end it here.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I know I would check raise here with air. MLG said he was one of the most aggressive players on his table. If I have that read I know a good percentage of the time he has missed this flop and is making a standard continuation bet. Plus villain is aggressive so he makes this play a lot imo.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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Well,
If this guy is truely "very aggressive" and we've seen him make 2 non-aggressive plays wouldn't it make sense to put him in monster/crap land. And hense try to play a small pot.
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I pick the top line because I've seen the guy complete a smallish opening bet and check to me (hense I think he may fold)


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fwiw, w/ these stacks, he's much more likely to c/r the flop than bet out w/ any type of hand, so i don't think you can use "he checked so he's weak" as an argument.

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Its not so much "he check so he's weak". He didn't raise PF so I'm not worrying too much about AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,(maybe KQ). And because the opening bet was kinda small he'd be more likely to play along with many hands. In my experience people who are very aggressive get noted as aggressive because they play a bunch of hands (aggressively)...if they were tight and aggressive sticking mainly to premium hands they'd be hard to label as aggressive because we wouldn't see them play too much. Therefore we can't shorten the hand range of our opponent too much.

So I'm not super worried about the K. But I am worried about checking the flop only to see a Q or something like 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . In which case the impending turn bet the opponent WILL make could be ANYTHING. This is good when he's betting air but he could very well have just caught a 2nd pair on any brick or picked up a higher pair with any overcard.

So I choose to take a stab now when I'm reasonably sure I'm ahead than wait till later.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

by complete bluff we're talking total air here. You mean to say that you'd cr here with 56 of hearts? I wasnt playing THAT fast. Sure lots of semibluffing hands will cr, as will some worse made hands like A9, but complete air just doesnt happen all that often.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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If we call and he bets and then we push we've got some folding equity.


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you mean check and push a turn bet. The obvious problem with that is that there are a large number of very scary turn cards. My contention is that if we *know* he's checkraising us here for what is effectively our stacks, then I think that we are well ahead of his range and I don't mind playing this like the nuts. And if he folds, then that's fine too. I just think that there are too many bad turn cards that I would rather not see.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

he's aggresive not crazy. we don't know he's cring us. he isnt cring us with any 2. he is much more likely to cr with a draw than check call though. It was difficult for me to tell how out of line he had been getting (if at all) because his aggression had been paying off and he hadnt had to show down any hands.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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you mean check and push a turn bet. The obvious problem with that is that there are a large number of very scary turn cards. My contention is that if we *know* he's checkraising us here for what is effectively our stacks, then I think that we are well ahead of his range and I don't mind playing this like the nuts. And if he folds, then that's fine too. I just think that there are too many bad turn cards that I would rather not see.

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Good point.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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I may make a weak lead on the turn so I can get in the last raise, or just fold to his turn raise if I don't like the way it feels.


[/ QUOTE ] How about a weak lead on the flop? If he CR it shouldn't be a push. Then come over the top/ call or fold depending on how it feels.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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he's aggresive not crazy. we don't know he's cring us. he isnt cring us with any 2. he is much more likely to cr with a draw than check call though. It was difficult for me to tell how out of line he had been getting (if at all) because his aggression had been paying off and he hadnt had to show down any hands.

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Then I would definitely bet the flop and try to end it there. If you are not sure he is c'raising then why not lead the flop and win this a good percentage of the time right there.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

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How about a weak lead on the flop? If he CR it shouldn't be a push. Then come over the top/ call or fold depending on how it feels.

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Yes, I'm liking getting involved more on the flop the more I think about this and read others' thoughts.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

I don't understand a lot of the posts.

An aggressive BB calls 1200 into a 3k pot.

Isn't his range huge?

If he is aggressive and that is why you check the flop, are you checking because you have given up on the hand?

If not, why check? It seems your problem would be more difficult if he leads the turn.

-SC

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

The idea behind checking the flop is to structure the betting so we are the ones putting in the last raise. Thats because typical pretty good aggressive players are more than willing to raise light, but much less willing to make thin calls.

Re: Now I know what its like to play against me
 

So, not to be results-oriented here, but i'm curious now - how did this hand play out?