Dealers mouth!
 

I was playing in a home tournament, a player who had already been knocked out was doing the dealing and I was heads-up against a player that rarely thinks things through. On fourth Street the board only needs a king for the Ace high straight (no flush). As the dealer is pulling the river card, he announces "you aren't going to believe this" and turns over a king.......Mr. Never thinks, checks to me and I bet the size of the pot......he looks at his cards, shakes his head and acts like he is confused and is about to fold......then the dealer says "He can't have you beat, what are you doing, a straight is on the board with no flush!". What would you guys have done...other than scream when I got called?!?!?!?!

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Let me be the first to say it. You should have kicked him in the nuts.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

From prior posts, I probably have a different view from this kind of home game than many.

I too, often play in a game where there are players who don't have a clue. Their total poker for the year is in one or two home games, and while they probably know the ranking of hands, they know little else. (You can tell who this person is because the's the one who usually calls for stud instead of holdem or even draw poker when the button comes to him.)

I treat these games as a bonding experience rather than serious poker. Now, if I were in your case, I think would have told the guy myself that there was a nut straight on the board.

Actually, I think that this is even a +ev move. If your fishy friend is made to feel like an idiot for folding the nuts he may quit the game -- this would be VERY bad. More importantly, at least in my case, since people know I play more seriously than the rest, I worry that trying to take this pot here could affect friendships, and frankly, there's not enough money on the table to be worth it.

This being said, if I haven't described your home game (i.e., yours is more serious): Kick the dealer in the nuts.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Very good points! It is one of my less serious games...you are right, not enough in the pot to make a big deal over it, just thought it would be interesting to see if I could buy the pot!

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Oh, I've done the same thing in a B&M limit game and have it work -- three way pot, the board showed the nuts, I bet, next player raised, third player folded.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

I think I would have just let the pot go and said to the dealer that it isn't cool to comment on the hand as they can affect the play. Leave it at that.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

We had a similar situation in our home game that was heads up that ended differently. There was an Ace-high straight on the board, when one guy who plays well went all-in. The other guy was mulling it over and about 6 people were watching.

I understood what was happening and had to grab those people who have a difficult time keeping there mouth shut, who were considering saying something. The second guy eventually folded and we showed him how he just lost half the pot.

We have a semi-serious game, but we're really there for social reasons. The guy who folded comes back and holds no grudges towards anyone.

I don't think you would have lost a player. Your opponent did learn a lesson on paying a little more attention.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Concede half the pot, no problem. Take the deck from the "dealer", inform him his services are no longer required and that if he ever does that to you again he will be under direct threat of violence.

Fooling fools is part of poker. He's a dick, violating both the spirit and the letter of "One head to a hand".

edit: did the "dealer" have any financial interest in your opponent beating you?

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

He was definitely wrong in saying something but since he did there's not much to be done. You could become very upset but I doubt it would help, and since it's a non serious game I'd just let it go. What's even funnier is if the fish would have called, you said straight, and he mucked his hand. There was a funny story in Card Player by Daniel Negreneau maybe 18 months back.

Another note, the dealer should know enough to not say anything unless there is a dispute, or to announce raise, call, and to count chips as if you move all in you're not required to count your own chips.

JMB

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

You can never have too much nut kicking

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

I would have made a strong request for a rule stating that those not in the hand should keep their mouths OUT of the hand.

You got jobbed.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

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You got jobbed.

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I disagree.

If you're playing a cutthroat game against other good players, then betting here to take advantage of someone who might be distracted is fine.

Betting into a fish in a home game is not. As far as I'm concerned, it's shooting an angle. For the love of God, you're playing against a guy who has trouble reading the board. Do you have to resort to this kind of thing in order to turn a profit? Do you think he isn't going to find out, after the hand? How is that going to make him feel? Do you think he's going to continue dumping money into your game if you make a fool out of him here?

I agree that the dealer needs to be smacked, but complaining that you lost half a pot that you were not entitled to is really bad form.

jafager

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

[ QUOTE ]


I disagree.
...
Betting into a fish in a home game is not. As far as I'm concerned, it's shooting an angle. For the love of God, you're playing against a guy who has trouble reading the board. Do you have to resort to this kind of thing in order to turn a profit? Do you think he isn't going to find out, after the hand? How is that going to make him feel? Do you think he's going to continue dumping money into your game if you make a fool out of him here?


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How does that make him feel? Like a dumbass, of course. Next time he's in that situation he'll know better. I had no idea we were supposed to refrain from making others cry or (God-forbid) take their money fairly. Thanks for the heads-up!

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Stupidest thing I've read in a LONG time. Poker is not a game of cards, it's a game of money played with cards.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

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How does that make him feel? Like a dumbass, of course. Next time he's in that situation he'll know better. I had no idea we were supposed to refrain from making others cry or (God-forbid) take their money fairly.

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For one thing, it's good business. If it's somebody you know will laugh about it, fine. That doesn't sound like it's the case here. This person is obviously a donator. If you trick him out of claiming his half of a $20 pot, and he stops dumping $50 a week into your game, what have you gained?

jafager

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

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Stupidest thing I've read in a LONG time. Poker is not a game of cards, it's a game of money played with cards.

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A game played by people. And if you want a continued supply of suckers to play with you, you have to show them at least a little respect. And not making a fool out of them with this kind of play is exactly how you do that.

jafager

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

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Stupidest thing I've read in a LONG time. Poker is not a game of cards, it's a game of money played with cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I disagree with jafager about this being a type of angle shoot (especially since this is a tournament, where a pot means more than in a cash game, because of the knock-out nature of tournaments), I STRONGLY disagree with you that this was "stupid" (and if this is the stupidest thing you've read in a long time, you must not bounce around these boards very much) He has a very good point about long-term vs. short term consequences.

I also don't think that your "game of money" quote makes a good point here.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

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I had no idea we were supposed to refrain from making others cry or (God-forbid) take their money fairly.

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Have you ever tried to start up and maintain a home game? There are a different set of goals to consider besides just your selfish ones (and considering those overall goals might just SERVE your own needs as well).

I'd think about the ideas involved again.

Just to be clear- I still say bet the river, but don't make a big deal of the dealer's interference right then. Do it on the side. I'd also explain to the newer player what they missed, later on.
If your game is so weak that you can't afford to help train newer players to a certain extent, then maybe your game needs work.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Just one small point from your post.
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As the dealer is pulling the river card, he announces "you aren't going to believe this" and turns over a king.......

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How can the dealer annouce the card? He needs to be reminded on how to deal. Its clear he looked at the card and before turning it up for all to see had time to make his remark. Very very bad.
1 if hes going thru the deck its wrong
2 if he looks at the card and holds it back its wrong.
Dealers must flip the card so all can see at the sametime. Doesn't matter if they are playing or not.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

I don't softplay anyone, I guess it's a character flaw, dunno.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Rarely does everything go the way you want in poker. Sometimes you just have to roll with the punches. Use it to your advantage. He'll think that your trying to boss him around now, he'll call more of your bets. Just let it go and move to the next hand.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Take the deck from the "dealer", inform him his services are no longer required and that if he ever does that to you again he will be under direct threat of violence.

Alternatively, you could NOT do this and thus avoid looking like a macho prick who deserves a good kicking.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

macho is as macho does

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That's not softplaying, that's not taking advantage of a new player.

You need a different attitude if you're going to play in a lot of different home games.

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No, I need a different attitude if I'm going to play in a "training ground" as you espouse. I play pokah.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

I just read this whole thread again. This is a good division of who is playing poker and who is trying to have fun.

Yes, I see the point of "shearing a sheep many times" and all but really... there are enough sheep these days that we can afford to accidentaly skin one occasionally. Combine this with the fact that it's heads up in a tournament with (one would assume) a much higher payout for first and I'll take the chance that I skin him.

Besides... if OP takes that pot WITHOUT THE FISH KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED then HE NEVER KNOWS! The "dealer" screwed it up for our hero here, no bout adoubt it.

I especially appreciate the opinions of the other actual poker players that have bothered to post in this thread, you guys know how to play, even at home games. Some of the posts here flip-flop and state they would tell the player about the situation in one breath, then turn around and claim this is a +EV move. Remember, he would never even know had everyone kept thier mouth shut. HE DOESN'T KNOW... LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY. You cannot on one hand educate the fish and on the other make the same money from them.

The people that state, "What is done is done." are completely correct. There is no way to make this fool take his words back and the damage is done. However, the posters that oppose my stance of removing this "dealer" from his "post" and critisize me for standing up for myself in situations like this need to think about it. At what point DO you stand up? Is it when the loudmouth points out that it's only T100 to call a T10k pot when you really, really, REALLY want the opponent to fold? Taking exception to my attitude of, "Lets go roll around in the parking lot for awhile!" can be attributed to a soft upbringing or a general passivity and I can accept that, but really, when is enough enough?

When it comes to starting and maintaining a home game, I would wager that VA and I have both done this succesfully. We show the fish respect by NOT softplaying them, we tear them a new one if the situation warrants it. Should they want to discuss the situation away from the table, THAT'S the time to educate. I've actually turned a couple of complete fish into decent to good players like this. No reasonable adult likes to be coddled when it comes to gambling, they want you to play as hard as you can against them. Hell, some people even come to my game just to get a taste of my kung-fu, they have told me this directly. (VA, if you take exception to this, feel free to countermand it in a reply.)

Anyone who agrees with me probably made it all the way through this post shouting, "Preach it, brotha!"... you guys know who you are. Any detractors that made it this far, I welcome coherent discussion in this or another thread. As for as the "macho" comment guy... duh. I'm a successful male poker player, of COURSE I'm macho. Even the physically slightest and least intimidating "top pro" I can think of, Daniel N. is more "macho" than quite a few of my construction worker peers.

Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to starting and maintaining a home game, I would wager that VA and I have both done this succesfully. We show the fish respect by NOT softplaying them, we tear them a new one if the situation warrants it. Should they want to discuss the situation away from the table, THAT'S the time to educate. I've actually turned a couple of complete fish into decent to good players like this. No reasonable adult likes to be coddled when it comes to gambling, they want you to play as hard as you can against them. Hell, some people even come to my game just to get a taste of my kung-fu, they have told me this directly. (VA, if you take exception to this, feel free to countermand it in a reply.)

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No objections here. I actually was going to reply to this earlier but decided to just blow it off.

I would actually contend that I am the one acting honorably here by playing my "best game". What is the honor in allowing someone to think they are playing well only to bleed them dry over time? How is it better to treat a guy who can be expected to play by the same rules as everyone else differently? How is this person going to learn that mistakes have consequences? If he loses a tournament due to playing like a bonehead then he's prepared to not do it again. I am certainly going to let them know that they did something wrong afterwards.

This is not an angle. No rule, intent, or whatever was broken, bent, or sidestepped.

Sheesh.

Preach on, smoore!

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

Hey mods... can I have the title of:

Thread-Killer

?

It's not just this one, I seem to kill quite a few... see: busterstacks... I killed the holy crap out of that thread.

You haven\'t slain the beast YET, Tarzan
 

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No, I need a different attitude if I'm going to play in a "training ground" as you espouse. I play pokah.
-------
Concede half the pot, no problem. Take the deck from the "dealer", inform him his services are no longer required and that if he ever does that to you again he will be under direct threat of violence.

Fooling fools is part of poker. He's a dick, violating both the spirit and the letter of "One head to a hand".

edit: did the "dealer" have any financial interest in your opponent beating you?
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I just read this whole thread again. This is a good division of who is playing poker and who is trying to have fun.

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In a home game, I don't think these should be separated, ESPECIALLY by more experienced players. As in, you should make some small sacrifices in MOST "home games" to insure that others are having fun, if that is one of their primary motivations for playing.

Unless you are in a home game that is overwhelmingly populated by serious-poker-play-only participants, the goals of a "home game" shouldn't just be the poker rules. Therefore, you don't go all draconian with responses to what most likely are innocent/unplanned mistakes. That is the problem I have with your "kill the dealer" diatribe above.

Take the opportunity to train the people involved- they, the game, AND you will be better served. It doesn't have to be immediately, but to get all hissy about it doesn't make sense either


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Yes, I see the point of "shearing a sheep many times" and all but really... there are enough sheep these days that we can afford to accidentaly skin one occasionally. Combine this with the fact that it's heads up in a tournament with (one would assume) a much higher payout for first and I'll take the chance that I skin him.

Besides... if OP takes that pot WITHOUT THE FISH KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED then HE NEVER KNOWS! The "dealer" screwed it up for our hero here, no bout adoubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I have also said, the dealer made a mistake; betting into the shared board wasn't a mistake, but going overboard in reacting to losing half of the pot WAS a mistake IMHO.

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I especially appreciate the opinions of the other actual poker players that have bothered to post in this thread, you guys know how to play, even at home games. Some of the posts here flip-flop and state they would tell the player about the situation in one breath, then turn around and claim this is a +EV move.

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jafager was talking about overall +EV, not just this one tournament situation (he missed the fact that it was a tournament; he told me that he falls more in line with "bet and try to take the other half" group with that understanding)
I guess we're not "actual" poker players to you.

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Remember, he would never even know had everyone kept thier mouth shut. HE DOESN'T KNOW... LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY. You cannot on one hand educate the fish and on the other make the same money from them.

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Maybe not the SAME money, but you make more money if weaker players stay around longer to play, even if your edge is slightly less. Don't go overboard with your "REAL poker for REAL men" huffing and puffing.

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Taking exception to my attitude of, "Lets go roll around in the parking lot for awhile!" can be attributed to a soft upbringing or a general passivity and I can accept that, but really, when is enough enough?

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Going completely overboard because you obviously had an abusive childhood isn't the answer either (as long as the "sweeping generalizations" light is still on...)

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When it comes to starting and maintaining a home game, I would wager that VA and I have both done this succesfully. We show the fish respect by NOT softplaying them, we tear them a new one if the situation warrants it. Should they want to discuss the situation away from the table, THAT'S the time to educate. I've actually turned a couple of complete fish into decent to good players like this. No reasonable adult likes to be coddled when it comes to gambling, they want you to play as hard as you can against them. Hell, some people even come to my game just to get a taste of my kung-fu, they have told me this directly. (VA, if you take exception to this, feel free to countermand it in a reply.)

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That's one take on the way to go. There are others equally valid when dealing with new players.

Your turn! :P

Get back in the cave, Jane.
 

What in the holy [censored] are you talking about, lotto?

I said "direct threat of violence", who says he'll die? I suppose it's possible to die from getting punched but not very likely. How is saying, "Give me the deck, we don't need your kind of help. If you do that again I'll kick your ass." going overboard? Going overboard would involve berating him or throwing something or generally having a tantrum. The OP mentioned "screaming" when he was called... I wasn't there but I imagine it was a <anime> "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" </anime> instead of a "YOU DICK!" I guess he will have to tell us.

The guy who missed the fact it was HU in a tournament should have read a little more carefully.

I am not "huffing and puffing" or posturing in any way. I give no quarter while playing cards, nor do I apologise for that fact. I disagree with people saying, "Take it easy on the poor fish." I would be embarrased if someone did that to me.

Re: Dealers mouth!
 

you should tell the dealer he can't comment on a hand like that as it can affect someone's decision and then let it go. obviously if this was a raked/casino game you'd expect much better.

everyone saying you shouldn't make the move is 100% wrong, however. thsi isn't shooting an ang;le at all. it's not like you purposefully miscalled your hand. you just bet.

\"Don\'t be such a puss, Gus\"
 

"Just listen to me" (and thus ends the Paul Simon Revival Concert :P )

I think we're just a Mars/Jupiter difference on what a home game is. Before I address your comments, this is lifted from my current partial house rules draft:

'GENERAL RULES OF CONDUCT

DPC MISSION STATEMENT
All of the specific rules and examples that are detailed below are written as part of a more general, overall principle for the conduct of members of this private home game. This general principle is as follows:

The primary goal of this private group is to establish and maintain a regular and “friendly” venue in which the invitees may play various card games. While the play of any card game, but especially poker, is expected to be competitive and individually-focused, a general concept of decorum and consideration is an overriding goal of this private game. The spirit of this general principle is paramount; all decisions and rulings made will be made with this primary goal in mind, even if those decisions would contradict a specific rule detailed below.
In short, our goal is to play serious poker without being overly serious about it- an enjoyable experience is a primary feature of the evenings that we share. Your contributions to the group as a whole are an expected standard of playing- it is not just about you playing poker for your own gains."

We play seriously and generally by-the-casino-rules, but there's more to it than that IMHO.

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How is saying, "Give me the deck, we don't need your kind of help. If you do that again I'll kick your ass." going overboard?

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If you actually believe what you just wrote, either you don't get many new players or the sign above your door must say "Play or Die!"

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I disagree with people saying, "Take it easy on the poor fish." I would be embarrased if someone did that to me.

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Maybe not "take it easy" but "help them learn and adjust"?