$11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

3-handed on PP, Blinds 100-200, I'm the BB

Button - 4000
SB - 2600
BB - 1400

Button raises to 400, SB calls.

I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

200 in the pot, I have 1200 left. I didn't push thinking I'm beat or coin flippin'. I called leaving me with 1000, to see what flop was like.


Comments?

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

I think you made the worst move possible. This is an auto push for me, and it's not even close. I can see folding, but calling is just horrible.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

The flop, half way out of position with 2 others in isn't going to be way too much trouble, not to mention calling is terrible to begin with.

Easy push, you may even have FE on the B, for sure on the SB.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

I would also call. I don't see much FE, and you are getting 5-1 on a call. Depending on how tight the opponents have been playing, I might push a ragged flop.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

I think calling is just terrible. Why do you have no FE?

The antithesis of tricky.
 

Nothing tricky about it. Push.

- The big stack's range is generally very wide here. Your equity is at least 50%. With pot odds of 1.2:1, this is a clear +EV play. You are better off with this hand then hands like KQo here (although I'd push with that too).

- A pair 3 handed is a big hand.

- You are extremely short stacked. In just 6 hands you'll lose half of your stack to the blinds. My push range includes hands much weaker than 66 here, especially if the big stack is raising a lot of hands.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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I would also call. I don't see much FE, and you are getting 5-1 on a call. Depending on how tight the opponents have been playing, I might push a ragged flop.

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Calling is terrible. We're calling off almost 1/3rd of our stack and we won't have any idea if the flop helped our opponent or not. Unless we make a set we can't be sure we have the best hand. We need to gamble to double up, and more times than not we have the best hand.

A note on set value: Even if our stack was big enough to play for set value, we're only getting 3.5:1 odds for the call, not 5:1. If my opponents tend to pay off sets regularly I would need about 4.5:1 to make this call.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

What flop are you looking for? 6xx? 543? Most flops are going to have several overcards. You can either SnG this or just outright push. Either way it doesn't matter. But making a decision based on the flop is bad because often times it won't be a "good" flop.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

Good feedback.

Here was my logic, and please correct me if something is invalid:

The players were tighter than most, and especially the SB who called the raise. I only called off 1/6 of my stack (not a good move, but not outrageously horrible either??).

As for fold equity, not sure it was great based on the tightness of the players at this point. I thought by waiting and then pushing with other hands with small raises could get me more chips.

As for those who said "what kind of flop are you looking for" - obviously most will not be good. But I thought calling 200, then seeing a decent flop, then pushing with 1000 more to double up or take the 1200 in the pot.

This decision was more dependent on my analysis of the players at the table. In a normal situation, I would have pushed.

Given what I said - is this still a huge push? Did my logic/the way I played it make sense?

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

Based on it all, I still think it's a clear push.
Calling 1/6 is very bad.

I mean, they may be tight, but it's still 66, you still have to push, unless it's like the only time he's raised all game. Even then I push.

It's still a huge push. Rather fold then call though.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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I only called off 1/6 of my stack (not a good move, but not outrageously horrible either??).


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Well, I hate to be harsh, but it's most likely horrible. The only saving grace is if you plan to make a stop-n-go play, pushing *any* flop without even looking.

There doesn't seem to be much if any fold equity pre-flop because, if you push, button only has to call 800 into a 2200 pot, unless he's worried about SB reopening with a raise. If button calls, SB gets an even better price.

So, looks like stop-n-go here. I'm not thrilled about it, but you are too short-stacked to fold this.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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So, looks like stop-n-go here. I'm not thrilled about it, but you are too short-stacked to fold this.

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i think a stop-n-go is a really, really bad idea facing 2 opponents. like most everyone else, I am pushing preflop.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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So, looks like stop-n-go here. I'm not thrilled about it, but you are too short-stacked to fold this.

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i think a stop-n-go is a really, really bad idea facing 2 opponents. like most everyone else, I am pushing preflop.

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If you have no FE, how can a stop-and-go possibly lose you anything?

If you think you have FE, please explain why, instead of just stating your opinion. Thank you.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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If you have no FE, how can a stop-and-go possibly lose you anything?

If you think you have FE, please explain why, instead of just stating your opinion. Thank you.

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sorry - your criticism is valid. my opinion is that, in this particular hand, you are more likely to get a fold from at least one (although probably not both) if you push preflop, but if stop-n-go you have given two opponents chances to hit on an overcard on the flop. i would rather take my chances vs. one opponent in exchange for the little extra slice of fold equity you get by stop-n-go-ing. i think that the extra fold equity you get via stop-n-go is small vs. one opponent and virtually nil vs. two opponents.

any thoughts?

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

Fair enough - its an easy push on all arguments.

I've been doing alot of analysis of players and situations in the $11s - probably more than necessary, I guess with certain hands given your stack, there is only 1 decision to make.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

i agree with this 100%. the advantage u gain by even possibly pushing one of them out of the hand is far greater than the slight FE you might gain from a stop-n-go.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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If you have no FE, how can a stop-and-go possibly lose you anything?

If you think you have FE, please explain why, instead of just stating your opinion. Thank you.

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sorry - your criticism is valid. my opinion is that, in this particular hand, you are more likely to get a fold from at least one (although probably not both) if you push preflop, but if stop-n-go you have given two opponents chances to hit on an overcard on the flop. i would rather take my chances vs. one opponent in exchange for the little extra slice of fold equity you get by stop-n-go-ing. i think that the extra fold equity you get via stop-n-go is small vs. one opponent and virtually nil vs. two opponents.

any thoughts?

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I agree I would much prefer to play 66 against one opponent. I guess I'd just have to make the decision for push vs. SnG there at the table.

I just saw others assuming you had obvious fold equity, and I really don't see it. A decent player has a theoretically correct call, and fish love to call and check you down in this type of situation to try to move up a place.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

By running a stop and go here, you risk letting someone hit something that could beat you that they might have folded to a push. Like Q7s and the flop comes 10,7,3, for example. A good looking flop for you, that has you now crushed. He would have folded your push, but you let him see it cheap and he hit. If he calls your push and hits, more power to him. But with 66, I would be content to push here and try to take down the pot right now. Someone with an ace, or over cards will probably call your push pre-flop anyway, but you want to the pot to be heads if you can.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

I agree too. You can't stop-n-go when you aren't first to act anyway. By definition you need to act first on the flop. In this case, SB could bet out and there goes your "stop-n-go" plan.

I might fold this if I thinkg SB and Button are apt to go to the river together, which is completely read dependent.

But, calling here is definitely the worst option. By bleeding your 1/6 you are effectively reducing your future FE much more than you are realizing.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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By running a stop and go here, you risk letting someone hit something that could beat you that they might have folded to a push. Like Q7s and the flop comes 10,7,3, for example. A good looking flop for you, that has you now crushed. He would have folded your push, but you let him see it cheap and he hit. If he calls your push and hits, more power to him. But with 66, I would be content to push here and try to take down the pot right now. Someone with an ace, or over cards will probably call your push pre-flop anyway, but you want to the pot to be heads if you can.

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You might want to double-check the stacks and pot. You have very little chance of "taking down the pot now."

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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I agree too. You can't stop-n-go when you aren't first to act anyway.

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Oops, yeah, I missed this somehow. Read somebody else's post instead of checking the original hand.

I now agree with the push preflop instead of stop-n-go.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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A decent player has a theoretically correct call, and fish love to call and check you down in this type of situation to try to move up a place.

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right, but i think you can shove one of them off.

scenario A: button has a good hand and calls. in this case the SB will fold a wide range of hands and just let the big stack "deal with you".

scearnio B: button has crap. in this case he probably gives up the steal after the call by SB then the raise by you.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

What are you scared of, Button would raise here with any two cards, and probably raise more if he actually had something. SB represents more with his call (but if he knows Button raises with anything, he could play any ace, two cards 10+ or any such marginal holding).

Just push, you probably have the best hand, waiting for a flop that might hit their probable overcards is bad.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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[ QUOTE ]
By running a stop and go here, you risk letting someone hit something that could beat you that they might have folded to a push. Like Q7s and the flop comes 10,7,3, for example. A good looking flop for you, that has you now crushed. He would have folded your push, but you let him see it cheap and he hit. If he calls your push and hits, more power to him. But with 66, I would be content to push here and try to take down the pot right now. Someone with an ace, or over cards will probably call your push pre-flop anyway, but you want to the pot to be heads if you can.

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You might want to double-check the stacks and pot. You have very little chance of "taking down the pot now."

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True, but stranger things have happened.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

This is a pretty easy decision. Here's how I read it. Bigstack is attempting to steal the blinds as cheaply as possible. SB has a very pretty drawing hand, but is too chickensh!t to move allin, and you have a made hand. Push, who cares about FE, you want to get called. With so much in dead chips in the middle, this is a great spot to battle and go for first.

Edit: By the way, there is a small element of the squeeze play here (except you have a decent hand). Frankly, I think I'd rather be called, but if you fold the other two, then so be it.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

Push. You are likely to be called by one, but not both of them. Considering you have 6bb right now (with 1bb in the blind) and there's 1k chips in the pot, this is really a no brainer. I suspect button will call, but even if he does, his range can be 44+,A8o+,A5s+,KJs+. This is way tighter than it really will be.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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Frankly, I think I'd rather be called, but if you fold the other two, then so be it.

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I agree.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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A note on set value: Even if our stack was big enough to play for set value, we're only getting 3.5:1 odds for the call, not 5:1. If my opponents tend to pay off sets regularly I would need about 4.5:1 to make this call.

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Ignore this note. I just realized that I missed the SB's call in my pot odds calculation.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

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I suspect button will call, but even if he does, his range can be 44+,A8o+,A5s+,KJs+.

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Your right there. I'm only playing SnGs one at a time, so I've been going alot more on reading players at the table and how to gain more chips, than by the numbers. Players here got their stacks on monsters, and were super quiet the rest of the tourney.

Most people here play by the numbers, I've just been doing it alot more by feel, so that's why I asked.

Re: $11 ITM - Tricky Situation - 66
 

Dead money in the pot. Go for it.