does clutch exist?
 

after ortizzle's performance last season, and pujols's this year, one would have to think that clutch DOES exist.

also, a-rod ALWAYS does crap when the games on the line, but pads his stats in blowouts.

Just throwing it out there.

Can anyone find any statistical analysis on this??

ZZzzZZzzZZzz

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Probably not. I could buy "choking" much more easily.

There's been plenty of studies, but I'm too lazy to look anything up. Try Google.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

The strongest example of clutch I can think of is Tiger.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

do you even know arods postseason stats?



personally i think the whole "clutch" argument is stupid, everyone knows why its bullshit to say "oh hes clutch" about 2 games but i do believe there are people who choke in big spots. in fact i know that in big spots some players arent equipped to deal with it and will perform badly. but saying some player is really clutch is stupid. do you seeee whyyyy

Re: does clutch exist?
 

If some people can choke in big spots, others can excel in big spots. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If some people can choke in big spots, others can excel in big spots. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't temporarily improve your power, your eyesight or whatever in certain situations, can you? Unless your not trying hard the rest of the time.

But I could see how someone could try too much or just [censored] their pants in general important at bats.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

clark i was playing devil's advocate to a forum of stat nerds (no offense, i'm one too).

basically, i can see how pressure will make someone tremble, overthink etc. causing them to be worse and "choke."

however, how can this make someone better? are they trying harder when the game is on the line?? explain your theory of cant have one without the other.

ZZzzZZzzZZzz

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If some people can choke in big spots, others can excel in big spots. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't temporarily improve your power, your eyesight or whatever in certain situations, can you? Unless your not trying hard the rest of the time.

But I could see how someone could try too much or just [censored] their pants in general important at bats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you definitely can focus more in key situations. Do you think Chris Carpenter was as focused in his last 3-4 regular season starts when nothing mattered as he was the rest of the year, or in the playoffs?

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
are they trying harder when the game is on the line??

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they are.

And I'm quite certain people are going to yell about this stance, but I don't particularly care. There are definitely chokers and there are definitely "finishers".

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If some people can choke in big spots, others can excel in big spots. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't temporarily improve your power, your eyesight or whatever in certain situations, can you? Unless your not trying hard the rest of the time.

But I could see how someone could try too much or just [censored] their pants in general important at bats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you definitely can focus more in key situations. Do you think Chris Carpenter was as focused in his last 3-4 regular season starts when nothing mattered as he was the rest of the year, or in the playoffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more just not performing to his full capabilities when he doesn't need to. Clutch really isn't about 'trying harder'.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you definitely can focus more in key situations. Do you think Chris Carpenter was as focused in his last 3-4 regular season starts when nothing mattered as he was the rest of the year, or in the playoffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but wouldn't that be because he wasn't giving it his all and didn't really give a crap in his last few starts rather than he was being "clutch"?

No doubt he was more focused but I don't see how focused = clutch. Esp. if you're talking for an entire season.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Haven't we had this discussion a dozen times in the last few months? I never got involved so I'll add my quick thoughts.

Some people react better under pressure and stress. To that extent, some players are clutch.

The media does hype up "clutch players" too much, though.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If some people can choke in big spots, others can excel in big spots. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

i definitely think you can. the difference is that one direction goes towards something unattainable (hitting .450 for a significant period) and the other goes towards something very possible (hitting .220).

also, you can't deny that in pressure situations some unprepared athletes will lock up and "choke". this happens.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If some people can choke in big spots, others can excel in big spots. I don't think you can have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't temporarily improve your power, your eyesight or whatever in certain situations, can you? Unless your not trying hard the rest of the time.

But I could see how someone could try too much or just [censored] their pants in general important at bats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you definitely can focus more in key situations. Do you think Chris Carpenter was as focused in his last 3-4 regular season starts when nothing mattered as he was the rest of the year, or in the playoffs?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more just not performing to his full capabilities when he doesn't need to. Clutch really isn't about 'trying harder'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that in part, it is.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
hitting .450 for a significant period

[/ QUOTE ]

No one has said that's the key number have they? Why can't clutch be hitting 10% better than your normal expectation? Picking an extreme case and batting it down does nothing to support your case.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Pujols' clutchness couldn't possibly be related to this could it?

http://www.drugscope.org.uk/wip/24/images/steroids.jpg

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Bitter, party of one, your table is ready.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Clutch exists for sure. It's more than trying harder in big games though clark because almost everyone does try harder in game seven of the world series etc. but not everyone comes through.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hitting .450 for a significant period

[/ QUOTE ]

No one has said that's the key number have they? Why can't clutch be hitting 10% better than your normal expectation? Picking an extreme case and batting it down does nothing to support your case.

[/ QUOTE ]

its just an example. there is a limit to how much a player can achieve, why do you think those limits will be liftef?

ive had more than enough to drink so that my reasoning and comprehension is off, so dont take my arguments too seriously right now, i'll come back to the thread tomorrow.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clutch exists for sure. It's more than trying harder in big games though clark because almost everyone does try harder in game seven of the world series etc. but not everyone comes through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think it has more to do with focus and concentration and relaxation, in other words being "in the zone" rather than "trying harder", and some players tend to enter the zone more often when the stakes are highest, some don't. (Tiger being the best example of the former).

Re: does clutch exist?
 

sure, and some sports psychologists talk about it. I have not read everything out there, but the idea is more complex than trying harder. People play for different reasons and respond differently to certain situations. Some players definitely focus better the more important the situation is and don't let negative stuff affect them as much. So they may perform better than they usually do while others perform less well. As others have said, I think announcers and fans come to simplistic and hasty conclusions. I don't think you can judge a baseball player by his batting average in one short series of course. And yeah, Tiger handles it better than others.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pujols' clutchness couldn't possibly be related to this could it?

http://www.drugscope.org.uk/wip/24/images/steroids.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Who do you think he is, Bagwell or Caminiti?

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Ever wonder if "clutch" is just some media fabrication?

Derek Jeter is a .210/.355/.306 hitter in the postseason with runners in scoring position.
He is also a 176/.263/.323 hitter in the postseason in "close and late" situations.

Alex Rodriguez is a career .330/ .395/ .583 hitter in the postseason.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

Is that clutch or just greater ability than the others? Nicklaus had the same "clutchness" too. He never missed a crucial putt when he needed it. But he was simply a great putter. He was just so great at everything else that people didn't recognize him as a great putter. They said Watson or Crenshaw were great putters (which they were) because their putting made up for other parts of their game that was not as good as their putting.

Same with Tiger I think. People say Faxon is a great putter (which he is) but not Tiger. Because Tiger is great at everything.

Still, there are probably players who had great ability but didn't get the most out of it because they couldn't peform in pressure situations. You can see it in Tiger's face down the stretch. Driven.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

To some extent, players with good images in the media in general bet the reputation for being cluth performers on the basis of a few hits or plays, without their records being carefully examined. Jeter has not hit particularly well in "clutch" situations during the regular season at any time during his career. I posted his numbers for 2005 and 2002-2004 in another thread. He has made some very "clutch" plays in the field at key times, though, and those have gotten a lot of publicity, maybe deservedly so (maybe not).

Re: does clutch exist?
 

I'm not gonna go digging through the numbers...but I'd say Robert Horry is a pretty good example of "clutch." That guy is lights-out when the game is a) important, and b) on the line. Night in, night out - he's an average-to-below-average NBA player.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ever wonder if "clutch" is just some media fabrication?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't tell me that, if the media didn't exist, and there were no headlines or commentators running at the mouth about so and so being clutch, and the only thing fans had to go on was what they saw with their own eyes day after day, less than 95% of them would come to the faulty conclusion that "That player has come up big in a couple key situations, and that other player hasn't, therefore player A must be clutch and player B a choker." The availability of statistical information in the last decade has changed things drastically.

In large part, a lot of the opinions sports media coverage reflect are the opinions of the majority of fans. And the reason is pretty obvious -- before I or any of my colleagues became sportswriters, we were fans. Most of my opinions on sports were formed long before I got into this profession.

So, no, I don't think "clutch" is just a media fabrication.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

People talk about clutch until it's one or two at-bats.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

So-called cluth and choke is exaggerated.
As a Yankee fan I will compare A-Rod vs Reggie Jackson. The blunt truth is that Reggie was a better hitter than A-Rod. I always thought he sleep-walked through the season and got motivated at the end. A-Rod is a more consistent player, but just doesn't hit great pitching. Even during the regular season he is a semi-automatic out against great pitching.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So-called cluth and choke is exaggerated.
As a Yankee fan I will compare A-Rod vs Reggie Jackson. The blunt truth is that Reggie was a better hitter than A-Rod. I always thought he sleep-walked through the season and got motivated at the end. A-Rod is a more consistent player, but just doesn't hit great pitching. Even during the regular season he is a semi-automatic out against great pitching.

[/ QUOTE ]

duck

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So-called cluth and choke is exaggerated.
As a Yankee fan I will compare A-Rod vs Reggie Jackson. The blunt truth is that Reggie was a better hitter than A-Rod. I always thought he sleep-walked through the season and got motivated at the end. A-Rod is a more consistent player, but just doesn't hit great pitching. Even during the regular season he is a semi-automatic out against great pitching.

[/ QUOTE ]

arod just doesnt hit great pitching. lol.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

"Even during the regular season he is a semi-automatic out against great pitching."

I checked out A-Rod's lifetime hitting stats against the ten pitchers with the lowest ERAs in the AL in 2005, and the ten relief pitchers with the most saves. Against those 20 pitchers, he's 80 for 241, .332. Against other top pitchers:

Clemens: 20-53, .377
Moyer: 21-54, .389
Pedro: 14-50, .280
Pettitte: 9-42, .214 (5 home runs)
Mulder: 15-50 .300
Hudson: 13-37, .351
Schilling: 3-19, .158
Halladay: 9-32, .281
Rivera: 3-11, .273

Re: does clutch exist?
 

that's not bad!

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Even during the regular season he is a semi-automatic out against great pitching."

I checked out A-Rod's lifetime hitting stats against the ten pitchers with the lowest ERAs in the AL in 2005, and the ten relief pitchers with the most saves. Against those 20 pitchers, he's 80 for 241, .332. Against other top pitchers:

Clemens: 20-53, .377
Moyer: 21-54, .389
Pedro: 14-50, .280
Pettitte: 9-42, .214 (5 home runs)
Mulder: 15-50 .300
Hudson: 13-37, .351
Schilling: 3-19, .158
Halladay: 9-32, .281
Rivera: 3-11, .273

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice work Andy. Be careful, you could spend 90 hours a week posting evidence contrary to the retarded opinions people spout in this forum.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alex Rodriguez is a career .330/ .395/ .583 hitter in the postseason.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong.

you aren't including his 2005 debacle.

oh, and take out those seatle numbers and it gets ugly in a hurry

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alex Rodriguez is a career .330/ .395/ .583 hitter in the postseason.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong.

you aren't including his 2005 debacle.

oh, and take out those seatle numbers and it gets ugly in a hurry

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any reason those don't count?

Re: does clutch exist?
 

well i just looked at arods OPS without all the HRs he hit, and let me tell you, his stats arent that good at all!

Re: does clutch exist?
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh, and take out those seatle numbers and it gets ugly in a hurry

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the dumbest argument ever and people do it all the time. Ignoring the good to prove someone/something bad is idiotic.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

The Seattle numbers are ancient history.

Re: does clutch exist?
 

When the question is "how does arod perform in the playoffs" the answer has to consider his career in the playoffs. If the question were "ignoring his years in Seattle, how does"..then you could ignore Seattle.