Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

The more and more I look at this thing, the more I believe that both leagues have instituted racist policies that negatively portray and affect black players.

Point #1: NFL Draft Requirements.
For the NFL you have to be TWO FULL YEARS out of high school in order to be eligible for the draft. Now, I know the NFL claims this is due to the physical nature of the game, that younger bodies aren't matured enough to make the leap to the NFL, etc. But give me a break...Mike Williams wasn't ready to play NFL ball after his freshman year at USC? Horse crap. Yeah, it's a rarity that a kid's ready to play NFL ball at 19 or 20 years old, but when he IS ready, he ought to be given the opportunity to at least have his abilities judged via competition by NFL GM's. These people are adults, and they ought to have a right to work up to their ability-level just like every other adult.

Case #2: NBA Draft Requirements.
As we all know, the NBA has just banned HS-to-pro drafting. This is in SPITE of the fact that a surprisingly high number of guys that went from HS to the NBA have done very well. HS draftees have a higher percentage of guys still in the NBA after 5 years than do college/overseas draftees, they have a lower percentage of guys with off-court legal issues than do college/overseas draftees, and they represent many of the game's most electrifying stars, including LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Tracy McGrady. These guys weren't READY to play in the NBA after they were done with HS? Come ON. Right to work being denied (and it's almost always with black athletes...let's face it, very few white people have the innate basketball ability at age 18 to play in the NBA).

To the above two points, consider this. Michelle Wie just turned professional at age 16. No one seems to have a problem with all the money she's going to be making, or whether she'll be able to handle all the power that comes with that money. Same thing with soccer, tennis, ice skating, hockey and baseball (where the majority of great prospects DO come straight from HS to the minors, signing fat bonuses along the way). The only two major sports that seem to have a problem with young guys being professionals and earning lots of money are the two major sports that are dominated by black athletes. I believe this is reflective of white society-at-large. It simply isn't as threatening to society to see an asian teenage girl making 50k/week at golf, or a good ole corn-fed white boy getting a 500k signing bonus to play in the Cubs farm system, or watch Jennifer Capriati win tennis tourneys at 15 (though she messed herself up pretty good). But it IS threatening to most of the powers-that-be in this country for an 18-year old black kid from the Bronx to jump straight outta high school and make more money in one year than most of us will see over the next 30. For whatever reason, we feel much more comfortable forcing these gifted black athletes into the indentured servitude of the NCAA, where they can work for free for a few years making rich white people even richer...all the while being required to act like a college student whether they're qualified for that or not, and all the while being denied most opportunities at having a job (due to the time constraints of college + athletics AND NCAA rules making it difficult for college athletes to obtain decent-paying jobs for fear that it might be someone, gasp, rewarding them for what they do on the field/court).

It's truly sickening when you really think about it...racism and ageism char-grilled and served on a "you have no rights" bun and topped with Massa's Special Sauce.

And today, I wake up and see that the NBA will be instituting a dress code, punishable by fines and suspension. They even specify what ISN'T acceptable...do-rags, throwback jerseys, big chain necklaces, etc. Hmm...does it sound like they're targeting Fred Hoiberg...or does it sound like they're targeting Allen Iverson? They're basically saying, "hey ni***rs, you either dress like white people or we're gonna take you out back and string you up."

Yeah, the NBA's gonna claim they're trying to "clean up" their image...projecting a more business-oriented, corporate look. But why is that necessarily a good thing? Why is it that corporate, white America has a monopoly on how to dress? Why is it that do-rags and throwback jerseys and gold chains aren't acceptable but button-down shirts with stuffy collars and useless things you tie around your neck and gold things you put in the cuffs of your shirt ARE acceptable? It's because the former are fashion trends started by black people, and the latter are fashion trends started by white people.

The more I think about it, the more disgusting it all seems. Comments, thoughts?

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
(and it's almost always with black athletes...let's face it, very few white people have the innate basketball ability at age 18 to play in the NBA)

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Racist

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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(and it's almost always with black athletes...let's face it, very few white people have the innate basketball ability at age 18 to play in the NBA)

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Racist

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Maybe, but prove him wrong. To the OP everything you said with the exception of the above is complete B.S.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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(and it's almost always with black athletes...let's face it, very few white people have the innate basketball ability at age 18 to play in the NBA)

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Realist

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FYP. Name for me a white athlete these rules have affected. Even if you can, I promise you I can name you ten black athletes for every one white athlete you can name, and a hundred more white athletes in other, white-dominated sports who were not hampered by such rules. Bottom-line, PRETENDING that these rules are aimed at whites and blacks equally is what's racist.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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(and it's almost always with black athletes...let's face it, very few white people have the innate basketball ability at age 18 to play in the NBA)

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Racist

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Maybe, but prove him wrong. To the OP everything you said with the exception of the above is complete B.S.

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Then follow your own advice. YOU prove me wrong instead of just calling it B.S.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

The NHL's requirement is 19 or 21 if they have played at least 1 year of hockey in North America at age 18, 19, or 20. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this effects mostly white guys.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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The NHL's requirement is 19 or 21 if they have played at least 1 year of hockey in North America at age 18, 19, or 20. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this effects mostly white guys.

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This is your thorough rebuttal proving that "everything" I said in my original post was B.S.? Fine, I shouldn't have included hockey because I don't know f-all about it. Respond to the arguments I'm making, though, or quit blanketly calling them BS.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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The NHL's requirement is 19 or 21 if they have played at least 1 year of hockey in North America at age 18, 19, or 20. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this effects mostly white guys.

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HA...okay, before I even grant that...cite a source. Google NHL age requirement and there's an article from Syracuse University that cites CBS on the NHL's age requirement being 18 or graduated from high school.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

I'll address the NBA somewhat.

See, the NBA is entering a bit of a dichotomy. Smaller and smaller arenas with more and more luxury suites is making it so predominantly wealthy (which, in this nation means white) people are the ones attending the games.

Since white people are the ones 'supporting' the NBA, Stern knows that he needs to make the league marketable to white people, to large corporations who buy the luxury suites, etc.

There was an interesting debate on TNT last year during halftime of a game. I don't recall who was participating in the discussion, but somebody made the point that the league doesn't need more white people per se, just more people that the white masses can relate to. This may mean fewer Jason Williams, and more Ray Allens, or it may mean more "clean cut white guys".

But if the NBA's image is "an 18-year old black kid from the Bronx" flashing bling, then the ticket buyers won't relate.

In the last couple of years the NBA has been on some thin ice, financially. If the NHL hadn't gone on strike last year, it would have been interesting to see how the casual sports fan would have looked at the NBA, especially after the early season "Players vs. Fans" brawl in Detroit.

Stern knows he needs to market the league to his bread and butter, the rich white guys. He knows that he needs to change (or, as some put it, clean up) the image in order to do that.

And by doing this, Stern is making sure that the players will still be able to afford their bling for decades to come. Stern is the one guy looking at the bigger picture.

Now, if you wanted to claim that many casual sports fans are racist, well, you **might** have something.

Josh

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

As for the NFL your example gave the one position that might be able to survive in the NFL. Every other position would get their ass kicked, which is why the rule is in place.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

NHL.com

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Entry Draft Eligibility
All players age 19 or older [(i) any player who will be age 18 on or before September 15 in the year in which such Entry Draft is held, or (ii) reaches his 19th birthday between September 16 and December 31, both dates included, next following Entry Draft, can attain eligibility by delivering to the League a written notice (Opt in Form) prior to the later of May 1, or seven days following the date such player finishes competing on his team in the year in which such draft is to be held.] are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, except:
(i) A Player on the Reserve List of a Club, other than as a try-out;
(ii) A player who has been claimed in two prior Entry Drafts;
(iii) A player who previously played in the League and became a free agent pursuant to the Collective Bargaining Agreement;
(iv) A plyer age 21 or older who had played hockey for at least one season in North America when he was age 18, 19 or 20

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My source is pretty reliable. My point was that the NHL has the same rules and the NHL has mainly white players. So to say the NBA and NFL implement these rules because they players are black is crap! Does the NHL have these rules because they are racist towards white players? It's because they don't want the players to get [censored] up. You can't get [censored] up playing golf you idiot!

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

You didn't read what you pasted.

The NHL entry draft allows 18 year olds. Sidney Crosby is currently 18 years old and playing in the NHL - he was born August 7, 1987.

As for racism, it's not racist - the NBA and NFL are the two leagues without a minor league system. Instituting a policy where players must play in college is better for everyone, save a few incredibly talented atheletes. No one is talking about guys who came out of high school, declared themselves eligible for the draft, didn't get selected, and are now playing in Serbia. As for the NFL, this is just common sense - no one should be coming out of high school to play in the NFL. Now you can argue that this is to prop up the NCAA in both leagues, seeing as how they now serve essentially as minor leagues - fine. But all sports should have a minor league system - most atheletes are not ready to compete at the highest level at 18.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

While McGrady Lebron KG have been successes you are ignoring the failures. The Lenny Cooke's Deangelo Collins, Leon Smith's of the world. If T-Mac Bron or KG goes to college they probably still go into the pros make millions, however if Lenny Cooke was forced to go to college he would probably much better off. You only point out the people who benefit from this policy, not the people who suffer.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

I dont know if its racism, I think its more closely related to good business pratice. I mean the owners and to a lesser extent the fans were getting screwed by players coming out of high school and being mediocre.

I mean most of the high school players that went straight to the NBA were terrible, except for a few. Most of the kids that came out of high school were either traded or developed when their contract was going to end or just ended with the team that drafted them. Its not really fair for the team to get nothing for their money.

Theres a reason the Oakland A's dont draft from high school. If you read moneyball you will have read how the A's GM thinks drafting high school kids is one of the stupidest things you can do as an organization. He believes this because he says the high school kids dont know where they are going with their lives yet, they might like baseball they might not, one cant be sure.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

You meant to reply to the OP, I think.

But Lenny Cooke, who played his senior year 30 minutes from my hometown, is exactly who I was thinking of.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Bill Simmons and Ralph Wiley had a good debate about race and the NBA a year or so ago. And apparently you can't access his old articles for free anymore so I can't go dig it up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Is it just me, or whenever someone cries "Racist!" do yuo think that person is a racist? I mean, you're making a generalization about white people making generalizations about black people. And it's not even actual generalizations either. You're interpreting a rule that you perceive to be racist simply because it affects a larger number of blacks that whites. And for that matter, percentage wise, there are more blacks in the NBA and NFL than whites, so yes, obviously it will affect more blacks than whites. And just for the hell of it, let's pretend that your assumptions are correct and that there are a bunch of Klansman running these two sports dominated by black athletes. Is two years of college ball actually going to hurt a player's chances of making it in the big league, aside from an injury? Frankly, I think it helps to weed out some of the disappointments and gives a tiny sliver of respectablity back to the NBA.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

im not sure if the leagues and these rules are racist. they are clearly trying to make the league more "marketable" and "clean."

regardless, i think its fundamentally wrong to not allow 18 yr olds (and younger) to undertake a career. something about some amendment about the pursuit of happiness.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

I think the NFL policy is a very sound one, it's been around forever, and it makes sense.

The NBA dress code is simple. The players keep talking about how it's a business. How they are business men. Well, if you are a part of the business world, part of that includes looking a certain part in order to satisfy those who are paying your bills. You can't have it both ways. Obviously since the league's predominantly black, it could be perceived as racist, but it affects Jason Williams as much as Jay Williams. The demand that athletes dress professionally with pride is not a new one, it's just the first time that it's really needed to be enforced. And it's not like the NBA dress code is particularly strenuous.

As for the draft, that was 100% a business decision. Too many teams were tying up valuable cap space and roster spots on players they needed to teach how to play. It was costing teams money. The need for the age minimum is on the surface totally bogus (no one whines when 14 year old white girls play tennis for $) but from the league's perspective, it's a decision made to protect their teams. If the new D-League works out, the NBA may very well reverse course when the CBA comes up again. But until then, they just don't want people shelling out cash and roster spots to Darko Milicic.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Your argument is a flat-out bad argument.

What's the difference between basketball/football and other sports?

Two words.

Owner Risk.

Even better....one word.

Speculation

Only in football and basketball is there a massive element of speculation risk.

Alex Smith #1/#1 in football: 6 years, $57 mil
Andrew Bogut #1/#1 in basketball: 5 years, $26 mil (and that money is guaranteed)
Justin Upton #1/#1 in baseball: ~$5mil

Football teams that are drafting #1 overall usually clock in around $500-600 million in franchise value. Do you know what happens to a $500 million franchise after a few $50 million investments go wrong?

It's even scarier for the NBA, with poor teams clocking in around the $150 million mark. The Bucks had to outlay a sixth of their value on Bogut this year.... in guaranteed money.

Compare that to the $5 million laid out by Arizona (worth $286 mil) to Upton or the $3 million max contract for rookies in the NHL ($110-$170 million franchise value for poorer-performing teams), and you start to get a glimpse of the economics involved with major pro sports. Baseball and hockey have a well-developed farm system to improve young talent. Even though baseball players can go "pro" at age 17, when was the last time you saw an 17 or 18 year-old on a major league diamond?

As far as other sports, I shouldn't have to really expound on my argument too deeply. If Michelle Wie fall apart on tour, she doesn't get paid. She's not taking away cap space from better-performing teammates. She's not a risk to anyone but herself. Ditto for Suzie Q. TennisPlayer or John H. BilliardsPlayer.

And is it really that bad of a gig for a 18 year-old aspiring football or basketball player? Telling them to go spend two years getting an education and being big man on campus while the owners accumulate a little more film and info on the player before investing a huge chunk of equity on these players? Are owners really "keeping blackie down" by telling them to wait a year or two before making 8-digits?

In a perfect world, a professional draft would work like this: #1 overall pans out as the best player available in that year's draft. #2 pans as second best player in the draft, and so on. It's not that owners want to keep blackie down. It's that they want to pay players what they are worth. Off the top of my head, a good example might be the 2001 NBA draft. 19yo high-schooler Kwame Brown goes #1 and busts. 19yo Tony Parker goes #28 overall and earns jack squat. Another year or two of development for these players, and suddenly Parker isn't earning less than $1mil a year while Kwame makes more than $4mil a year.

Are we to fault players for trying to cash in while they can...before everyone discovers they go bust or before they suffer a career-ending injury? Of course not. But just like in all business, money is power. The owners get to call the shots, and owners are all about mitigating risk.

(Ready for my cheesy closing line?)

You're screaming black and white, but all owners care about is green. Owners might have a problem with paying first-overall money to a poor black kid named Kwame Brown, but they'd have no problem paying the same kind of money to a poor black kid named Lebron James. There's too much at risk in the world of pro sports to be a racist owner.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

I just want to say that this is a great post. Nicely done.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

doug, you're absolutely correct, the problem is you were able to come to this conclusion due to your education in the world of business, which makes it possible for you to understand these types of things.

i agree with the draft age requirements, especially those for football. cmon anyone who honestly thinks the # of high schoolers entering the nba draft on bad advice recently isnt high is insane. You can list off the garnetts and mcgradys, but what about the Ousmane Cisse's and Lenny Cooke's? Never heard of them? there's a reason for that. 24 players declared out of high school this year, in a year where there were at most 2 who should have.

as far as the dress code, its not racist but it is dumb. let the players dress however they want as long as its not offensive.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

It doesn't take a business major to realize that a rookie basketball player or football player will get paid a higher percentage of a franchise's worth than their baseball or hockey counterparts. All you need to do is see things from the owner's side for a second.

24 players declaring straight out of high school....that's pathetic.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Okay, lotta responses since I was online a few hours ago. First of all, thanks to the serious responses. Let me attempt to respond to the different arguments that have been made thus far. I'll be grouping because some people have repeated similar points.

Argument Number one was Asufuji2004's claim that the NHL requires you to be 19-21

You have been pwned. There are, in fact, 18 year olds in the NHL. You simply failed to comprehend the rules you read, as Triumph36 pointed out.

Argument Number Two, made by Josh W, is that the NBA and NFL have made business decisions to appeal to their core fans, and those decisions merely have the appearance of racism because possibly the average sports fan is racist.

Yeah, this is basically what I think is happening. Notice in my original post I don't blame any specific individuals for overtly racist policies. I'm not claiming institutional racism here...just de facto racism. For any not clear, what I mean by that is because NBA and NFL officials are making decisions they believe will make white ticket-buyers happy, the greatest thing they are guilty of is the assumption that their ticket-buyers want black guys dressing like white guys and want athletes in predominantly black sports to not be so rich so young. I think there are degrees of that sentiment in the general sporting community, and that perhaps the NBA and NFL are overreacting to that sentiment (ie - I don't actually think most basketball fans care whether Iverson wears Armani or Atlanta Hawks throwback).

Artdogg makes the claim that WR is the one example of a position player who can survive in the NFL at 18, 19, or in many cases 20 years old...he says that every other position would get their ass kicked, which is why the rule is in place. Others have made the general injury claim as well.

I have a few responses...
First of all, WR is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, injury-wise. You're going full-speed and leaping into the air over the middle when you get drilled by a linebacker. So many serious injuries happen in this manner...if a WR can make it at 19, so can a lot of other positional players. Certainly kickers and punters, as well as physically-mature linemen possibly. I'm pretty certain you couldn't make it as an NFL QB without the experience...and certainly there are other positions on the field like that as well -- linebacker and CB come to mind.

Second of all, though (and more importantly)...if that is already the case (that very few players will be ready to play in the NFL at 18, 19, 20 years old)...why do we need a rule that prohibits ALL players from doing so? Are team owners and GM's SUCH bad judges of talent that they can't distinguish between a 19-year-old who is ready for the NFL versus a 19-year-old who is NOT ready for the NFL? Why punish the Mike Williams of the world? What gives anyone the RIGHT to punish the Mike Williams of the world (except for a horrible court ruling)?

As for the general risk-to-the-player argument...we're unwilling to let players (only in predominantly black sports) "risk their bodies" to play at a professional level and make LOTS of money because of some perceived harm that may befall them if they try......yet we seem entirely comfortable sending 18-year-old kids (a disproportionate number of whom are minorities) to Iraq and Afghanistan and make HORRIBLE money while thousands of terrorists spend every hour of every day trying to kill them. Please, nobody fein concern for the welfare of these kids' bodies as a good reason to institutionally bar them from trying to make a living with their skills.

Triumph36 makes a point about having a minor-league system in the NBA and NFL.

This is actually what I believe is the answer to the problem. You can't tell me there aren't mid-level cities in America (Tunica, Shreveport, Laramie, Austin, Birmingham, Youngstown, Colorado Springs, etc.) that wouldn't support minor-league NFL and NBA teams, providing it was organized and marketed properly. This would create two avenues for "honing your skills" in these two sports if you weren't ready for the big-time...college AND a viable professional mechanism. Baseball players use both avenues frequently (as do hockey players) and both systems work quite well. It gives kids who want to make a living at their skills RIGHT NOW an opportunity to do so...and it also gives kids who can progress quickly through those systems an opportunity to get to the big-time sooner, proving themselves to their franchises at a lower risk. Individual teams can then decide for themselves if they want to start EVERY draft pick on their minor league team or if they'll judge it case-by-case, etc. This is the type of solution that no one has executed.

Pudge 714 and Jorge10 make the claim that only a few high-schoolers have been successes in the NBA, while most have been failures.

This is simply untrue. In another case of not being able to find it in the archives at ESPN.com, I'm sorry for not being able to provide the specific reference. But one of their columnists did an in-depth study of all 30-40 high schoolers drafted into the NBA over the last ten years (since Kevin Garnett in '95 popularized the previously sparse process). ESPN found that high-school draftees had a higher percentage of players still in the NBA after five full seasons than non-high-school draftees and that they had a lower-percentage of off-the-court problems (legal, bad publicity, etc.) than did non-high-school draftees. Plus, out of a relatively small number of high-school draftees over the last ten years (35'ish)...a disproportionately high number of them have become bona fide superstars...including Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Rashard Lewis, LeBron James, Dwight Howard, and Amare Stoudemire.

Claiming that the NBA's high school experiment has been unsuccessful either on or off the court is simply a falsehood. Other factors are at work, here. Whether those are racist or not...up to each to decide because there's no hard evidence. But it's not due to lack of success of the players.

Jorge10 also points out the example of the Oakland A's and why they don't draft from high school.

Excellent, Jorge. Thank you for proving my point. The A's are a high-quality franchise that contends for division titles year-in and year-out, and they don't draft high-schoolers. See, you don't need a rule impeding the economic opportunity of young, almost-always black athletes. Teams themselves have the choices here, and can make whatever choice they want. If 18-year olds aren't good for a team, they don't have to choose them. Let the market and each individual's skills decide.

NeedsMoreNuts basically calls me a racist for making my points...saying that I'm generalizing how white people generalize about black people...he then ridicules my arguments by acting like I said Klansmen were running both leagues...he then espouses that college ball will usually help an athlete.

Firstly, thanks for being a tool and calling ME PERSONALLY a racist, though I made no such claim about ANYONE in my original post. I'm calling what's happening in the NBA and NFL an example of de facto racism -- not claiming Klansmen are running those leagues. If you're not sophisticated enough to *get* that while reading my post, I'm afraid we have little to discuss.

Yes, I'm interpreting certain rules to be grounded (at their possibly SUBCONSCIOUS core) in racism because they affect an astronomical amount more blacks than whites...and because in similar circumstances in sports that are dominated by whites, no such rules are existant nor do the vast majority of people feel are necessary.

I do not believe that contention in any way makes me a racist.

As for college ball helping most athletes...yeah, maybe it does. But the bottom line is this. If you're 18 years old and really smart and already earned a degree in accounting (the prerequisite to being an accountant), you should not be told that you have to be an accountant for FREE for two years to prove that you can do it...when there are PLENTY of firms already willing to hire you. Same principle applies here. Yeah, college ball is good for many players...and there are others who already have completed their prerequisite for being in the pros (their skills are there). That should be left up to the market of employers to decide...the right to be judged by the market and paid according to your ability should not be stripped from you just because most others need more development to succeed. And in all the predominantly-white sports, those rights aren't taken away from the exceptional. In both of the predominantly-black sports, those rights ARE being taken away from the exceptional.

Hence my case for racism. Decide what you will, but I think there's enough merit there to not resort to calling me a racist for bringing it up.

Clarkmeister makes the point that because the NBA is a business and players want to be treated like businessmen, they should be expected to dress in a business-like manner.

I don't necessarily disagree with this...I just wonder why it is that "business-like dress" has to be so rigid and determinant by white people. For a basketball player, their "business dress" is their jersey and shorts...no one is arguing that they shouldn't have to wear jerseys and shorts at the games. But before and after the games, we want to impose a dress code that forces them to look like corporate white America? WHY??? You MUST wear a jersey during the game, and you're FORBIDDEN from wearing jerseys before and after games. This simply doesn't make sense. Basketball players AREN'T lawyers or accountants or doctors or CEO's. They're guys who play sports for a living...and many of them are a heavy influence on black culture, some of which DOESN'T value a coat and tie as highly as stuffy white people do (just as some segments of white America, like me, don't value it either...part of why I became a gambler and a musician...to ESCAPE that sort of treatment).

Clarkmeister and gonores both make good arguments about team's financial needs, how younger players cost teams money because they draft them while they're still developing...gonores goes on to give analysis about differing team's total budgets versus the amounts they spend signing unproven players, etc.

These are very valid points. I only refer you to mine and others reasoning for why serious minor-league systems need to be in place...and also to a previous argument I've made about each individual having the right to be judged by the job market available based on his skills. Teams themselves must be accountable for who they decide to hire, just like each company must be held accountable as well. If ALL insurance companies decided, "you know, lots of hires straight out of college do not pan out...therefore, as an INDUSTRY (screams of illegal trusts), we are declaring that you must be at least two years out of college to work in the insurance industry, regardless of your skill," people would be irate over that decision. EACH COMPANY must decide for themselves who's qualified and who's not. Same for each team...if the NBA and NFL can't get their finances in order well enough to not violate people's right to work, that's their problem and it's time to put their houses in order in other ways. And perhaps their failure to do so is driving the current insanity.

However, none of the arguments posted here have provided smoking gun proof that at least SOME of these "business decisions" aren't at least partially motivated by trying to satisfy a perceived fundamentally-racist market demand. And THAT is the entire point I'm making. In the two major team sports dominated by black athletes, the only viable option available to kids who are talented enough to make money at 17, 18, 19 years old is to either LEAVE THE COUNTRY (or hopefully, the D-league will soon be a viable option)...or be an indentured servant in college, offering your skills to a university who will profit 50 times over the price of your scholarship. In all other major sports, this is not the case. Sometimes if it looks like it, sounds like it, and smells like it...it's because it IS it. I'm not saying overtly or even purposefully...but there is a racist result every bit akin to the mandatory minimums for crack versus powder cocaine...and something needs to be done about it.

Man, this was a long post. I should have separated each response. Sorry.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

for every 1 mike williams i give you thousands of maurice clarett's. you lose.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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I have a few responses...
First of all, WR is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, injury-wise. You're going full-speed and leaping into the air over the middle when you get drilled by a linebacker. So many serious injuries happen in this manner...if a WR can make it at 19, so can a lot of other positional players. Certainly kickers and punters, as well as physically-mature linemen possibly. I'm pretty certain you couldn't make it as an NFL QB without the experience...and certainly there are other positions on the field like that as well -- linebacker and CB come to mind.

Second of all, though (and more importantly)...if that is already the case (that very few players will be ready to play in the NFL at 18, 19, 20 years old)...why do we need a rule that prohibits ALL players from doing so? Are team owners and GM's SUCH bad judges of talent that they can't distinguish between a 19-year-old who is ready for the NFL versus a 19-year-old who is NOT ready for the NFL? Why punish the Mike Williams of the world? What gives anyone the RIGHT to punish the Mike Williams of the world (except for a horrible court ruling)?

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Sorry but you couldnt be any more wrong about other positions having a chance. I left kickers and punters out cause those arent real football positions, but theres no chance a lineman can jump from high school to the pros, its so much of a faster more physical game. Comparing the pros to high school is like high school to pee wees its that big a difference. The same goes for any defensive position, they would get pounded by almost anyone blocking them and completely run over. Their bodies are just not ready for that level.

The reason I brought up recievers as one of those with a 1% chance of making it is cause other then getting jammed at the line of scrimmage they have to deal with the physical nature of the game less then basically any other position, unlike linemen who have it every play. The reason WRs are so injury prone is it usually comes hits when they are in odd positions and those that they cant defend themselves, most of which the player himself cant avoid no matter what.

Now to your second point, what do you suggest they do? Have a screening process to see who is ready? Theres no way they can know without them actually playing in the NFL. You cant tell by the high school and first year college. Let me say Im not pulling this out of my ass, I know people of different positions then were one of the best at what they did at the college level, but when they made it to the NFL they just couldn't hang, and this is after all those years in college. This is why the rule is there that people must have those extra years to prepare themselves.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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for every 1 mike williams i give you thousands of maurice clarett's. you lose.

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What a thorough response that has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of my posts. You can't answer the charges I'm making with snappy one-liners, dude. I do not lose, least not to that.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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I have a few responses...
First of all, WR is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, injury-wise. You're going full-speed and leaping into the air over the middle when you get drilled by a linebacker. So many serious injuries happen in this manner...if a WR can make it at 19, so can a lot of other positional players. Certainly kickers and punters, as well as physically-mature linemen possibly. I'm pretty certain you couldn't make it as an NFL QB without the experience...and certainly there are other positions on the field like that as well -- linebacker and CB come to mind.

Second of all, though (and more importantly)...if that is already the case (that very few players will be ready to play in the NFL at 18, 19, 20 years old)...why do we need a rule that prohibits ALL players from doing so? Are team owners and GM's SUCH bad judges of talent that they can't distinguish between a 19-year-old who is ready for the NFL versus a 19-year-old who is NOT ready for the NFL? Why punish the Mike Williams of the world? What gives anyone the RIGHT to punish the Mike Williams of the world (except for a horrible court ruling)?

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Sorry but you couldnt be any more wrong about other positions having a chance. I left kickers and punters out cause those arent real football positions, but theres no chance a lineman can jump from high school to the pros, its so much of a faster more physical game. Comparing the pros to high school is like high school to pee wees its that big a difference. The same goes for any defensive position, they would get pounded by almost anyone blocking them and completely run over. Their bodies are just not ready for that level.

The reason I brought up recievers as one of those with a 1% chance of making it is cause other then getting jammed at the line of scrimmage they have to deal with the physical nature of the game less then basically any other position, unlike linemen who have it every play. The reason WRs are so injury prone is it usually comes hits when they are in odd positions and those that they cant defend themselves, most of which the player himself cant avoid no matter what.

Now to your second point, what do you suggest they do? Have a screening process to see who is ready? Theres no way they can know without them actually playing in the NFL. You cant tell by the high school and first year college. Let me say Im not pulling this out of my ass, I know people of different positions then were one of the best at what they did at the college level, but when they made it to the NFL they just couldn't hang, and this is after all those years in college. This is why the rule is there that people must have those extra years to prepare themselves.

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You're still being non-responsive to my basic point. Teams are capable of making judgment calls for themselves...why penalize the 1%? And why are those 1% (and a higher proportional number in the NBA) only penalized in the two sports which feature a large proportion of black players? You gotta get deeper into the analysis than "most people aren't ready for the NFL at age 18, so the rule is fine."

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

You answered your own question is seems. Its not racism, just business practices the leagues are forced to resort to because there is no minor league system in place.

I think you are correct, there is definately a place for minor league football and basketball.

Also the Oakland A's can do this because most baseball teams are terrible at drafting because its not a big deal as the minor league system for baseball is perfect. Drafting like a moron doesnt doom a team. I mean ask the Yankees if its hurt them? The NFL is all about the draft because of the lack of a minor league system, same thing with the NBA.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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You're still being non-responsive to my basic point. Teams are capable of making judgment calls for themselves...why penalize the 1%? And why are those 1% (and a higher proportional number in the NBA) only penalized in the two sports which feature a large proportion of black players? You gotta get deeper into the analysis than "most people aren't ready for the NFL at age 18, so the rule is fine."

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Well see there in lies the problem. You cant just let certain people go to the training camps. Youd have to let everyone, and it might take a lot of the focus off of a lot of people actually going to college where they actually have a shot to work on their game and get to that level. Obviously 99.9999999999999% of them are wasting their time.

Most importantly though its the NFLs job to protect their players to some degree, and theres no way any NFL scout teams can know a player is ready for the NFL without him playing a real NFL game. Theres not a team in the league that has practices even 1/3rd of the speed or 1/10th of the contact that happens in a real game. Its just a completely different atmosphere.

How can you not tell the difference between a 16 year old playing golf and an 18 year old playing football? BTW this post has nothing to do with the other sports that are in question just football for now.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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Well see there in lies the problem. You cant just let certain people go to the training camps. Youd have to let everyone,

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Man, you're really still not understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not advocating that everyone that wants one gets an invitation to training camp. I'm advocating that the two leagues not make institutionalized rules that are overtly ageist and, compared with other sports, subtly racist. Under my plan, all adults are ELIGIBLE to be drafted or asked to camp...still totally up to each team who they want to draft and invite.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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You answered your own question is seems. Its not racism, just business practices the leagues are forced to resort to because there is no minor league system in place.

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See, even if the reason for the ban is the lack of a minor league system (which I don't necessarily grant is the whole reason), then I still think it's racism on some level. Maybe it's tacit racism...but still racism, nonetheless.

Here's why. The NFL and NBA have had ample opportunity and means to do the right thing, to firmly establish a credible minor-league system that would serve the teams' needs AND keep them out of a position where they feel they must deny job opportunities to qualified adults (by contextual definition in this case, qualified means anyone who WOULD be able to play in the NBA or NFL but can't merely because of this rule...I'm not talking about anyone not good enough to play at that level). But instead of setting up that system, they're happy to use colleges as their minor leagues. College athletics are in many ways an indentured servitude of young athletes with great skill. They do not get paid yet they make tons of money for their universities, and in this country, these athletes under the age requirement of the respective leagues have NO other viable alternative to pursue professional athletics. Instead of remedying this system and setting up proper minor leagues to adequately test their talent pool (and keep owners and GM's out of situations where they're totally guessing on certain players based on their 40-speed or edited game tapes), they've adopted the short-sighted and exclusionary tactic of banning players underneath a certain age group from having even the opportunity to participate in the league.

PLUS, this is happening ONLY in the two sports which are dominated by black males. If a predominantly black school district had institutional policies (even borne out of bad organizational planning) that overtly denied work opportunities to its students while the predominantly white school district down the road did NOT have those hindrances in place, we would call that a case of de facto racism...maybe not intentional, but the effect on minorities is the same.

That's the point I'm making. Yes, credible minor leagues would be a very nice solvent. The fact that neither league has poured the resources into making this obvious solution available, instead opting to use the indentured servitude of forced college athletics as their unjust proving grounds, is one of the primary tenets of my case that both are behaving in ways that are racist -- I don't necessarily believe that it's calculated, but it's still happening.

If I pass someone on the street who's dying and I have an opportunity to save them yet choose not to, I share in the responsibility for their death. Sure, I'm not AS culpable as if I'd been the person who intentionally murdered them...but I'm still culpable in a tacit sense.

It's this sense in which I still see racism involved, even though the answer might be a minor league system. Whatever the answer, it's not being pursued and that's simply wrong (as well as being bad for both leagues long-term).

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Do you know how much money it costs to start &amp; run an entire league? Even a minor league basketball or football league would cost millions of dollars to start up. On top of that, it would be many years before the teams could start to make money (if ever). Why would the NFL &amp; NBA make such an investment, when the NCAA is right there, providing the development?

The minor league systems for baseball and hockey have been around as long as the major leagues, and many of the teams have very loyal followings. The development system is already in place.

The NBA &amp; NFL have had to put these draft rules in place for two reasons:
1) to protect the young players who are not physically or mentally ready for pro sports
2) to protect the teams from doing stupid things paying millions of dollars to rookies

Point number 2 is the same reason tese leagues have salary caps - to protect the owners from themselves.

I know there's no way to change your mind. You see racism, you hate "the man" and you won't see anything else. But try &amp; think rationally about the issue.

As for the dress code in the NBA: every person with a job has to meet certain standards for dress at their workplace. It won't kill people making a couple million dollars a year to wear a suit to work. Work is not where you "express yourself".

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

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Pudge 714 and Jorge10 make the claim that only a few high-schoolers have been successes in the NBA, while most have been failures.

This is simply untrue. In another case of not being able to find it in the archives at ESPN.com, I'm sorry for not being able to provide the specific reference. But one of their columnists did an in-depth study of all 30-40 high schoolers drafted into the NBA over the last ten years (since Kevin Garnett in '95 popularized the previously sparse process). ESPN found that high-school draftees had a higher percentage of players still in the NBA after five full seasons than non-high-school draftees and that they had a lower-percentage of off-the-court problems (legal, bad publicity, etc.) than did non-high-school draftees. Plus, out of a relatively small number of high-school draftees over the last ten years (35'ish)...a disproportionately high number of them have become bona fide superstars...including Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Rashard Lewis, LeBron James, Dwight Howard, and Amare Stoudemire.

Claiming that the NBA's high school experiment has been unsuccessful either on or off the court is simply a falsehood. Other factors are at work, here. Whether those are racist or not...up to each to decide because there's no hard evidence. But it's not due to lack of success of the players.


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My argument was not there were more failure than sucesses my argument is. If LBJ T-Mac etc. went to college they would be similarly succesfull, while Lenny Cooke etc. would not be nearly as big failures.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

I'll only address the dress code here.
The NBA already has the young audience and won't lose it. But 40+ people(mostly white) don't want to see millionaire athletes
dressed as gangsta rappers. It's a turn-off and the NBA wants
to attract these people too.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Are yellow suites dresscode?

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

OK...I'm beginning to agree with others that you're not going to change your mind...you see racism and arguments be damned. But I'll give it another whirl.

Why doesn't the NFL/NBA have a minor league?

Well, the NBA has a D-league. Without putting too much effort into it, I don't remember a whole lot of athletes developing into NBA-caliber players from the D-league. I could be wrong. From their site, I gather that 28 guys were called up from the NBADL from its inception (Nov. 2001) to opening day 2004-2005 season. That's not many cups of coffee to spread out to players over 3 years (and it's not like these guys have really developed into somebody's in the NBA...Rafer Alston and Ron Dupree are the marquee graduates). All these players started their careers under the old rules, where HSers could be drafted, so early signs are that the development league isn't turning good players into NBA-caliber players at a blistering rate.

As far as the NFL goes, does the World Football League ring a bell? It started as a minor league for the NFL in 1992. It had 7 North American franchises, including San Antonio, Sacramento, and Orlando. The league made it two years before it shut down and reappeared a few years later as NFL Europe, with no North American franchise representation. Look at the history of (outdoor) football leagues competing in the US with the NFL. The NFL is crack to fan...minor leagues just won't catch on in America.

That being said, there are tons of "Minor League" options available to a player dead set against going to college. CFL, NFLE, Arena football...it can be done. But you said it yourself, most players aren't pro-ready by the time they graduate HS. They go to college and get better under the NCAA umbrella (usually living better than their CFL/AFL/non-NFL-playing NFLE counterparts). Because of the nature of the game and how a player develops, the NCAA is where most of the non-NFL talent winds up. Therefore, if Mike Williams wants to go out and prove himself, he is better off proving himself against Arizona State instead of Dublin or Saskatchewan.

One other point about drafting high schoolers from one sport to the next. A lot of the risk tolerance settings from sport to sport depend on the scouting process. Baseball drafting, much more than other sports, is about statistics. It takes a lot less effort to scout a high school baseball prospect than it does to scout a high school basketball player.

Hockey is easier to scout because it isn't played in every major high school in the country. High School Hockey is maybe available in 20 states, and Canada simplifies the process even more with its Junior Leagues for budding allstars.

Basketball and football, on the other hand, are played basically every high school in the nation. Trying to scout 17 and 18 year olds in these sports is a massive undertaking. Quite simply, regardless of the resources, a basketball or football organization could not scout the HS leagues as thoroughly as baseball or hockey could. They bring less information to the table, making owners less apt to take risks.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

"let the players dress however they want as long as its not offensive."

What's offensive to David Stern, however, might not be so to Tim Duncan. I attend and participate in a lot of trade fashion shows and what constitutes corporate casual to me is a lot different than what it is for blacks. That's just the way it is. Twenty years ago young black men dressed "up" more than young white men; it's the opposite now.

Re: Racism in the NBA and NFL
 

Although some of these guys haven't gotten in legal trouble. T-Mac is an egomaniacal cancer who hasn't won a playoff series. Jermaine O'Neal needlessly punched a fan in last years brawl, and Kobe has had no legal or character problems recently.
Just because they were sucessful out of high school doesn't mean going to college would not benefit them.

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Do you know how much money it costs to start &amp; run an entire league? Even a minor league basketball or football league would cost millions of dollars to start up. On top of that, it would be many years before the teams could start to make money (if ever). Why would the NFL &amp; NBA make such an investment, when the NCAA is right there, providing the development?

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Maybe they shouldn't. But if they're not willing to make the investment, they should not set the rules so that 18-year-olds only viable option is the indentured servitude of the NCAA. If they aren't willing to invest in minor leagues, they should keep their doors open to anyone, of any age, that GM's and professional scouts deem ready to play at the top level.

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The NBA &amp; NFL have had to put these draft rules in place for two reasons:
1) to protect the young players who are not physically or mentally ready for pro sports

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Horse crap. These leagues view these players as commodities. If overworking Kerry Wood's arm when he's young is what they think will sell tickets, that's what they're going to do. And if banning young players in a sport where a signficiant percentage of the sports audience views young, black "hoodlums" with millions of dollars as a horrible crime against nature causes the "league image" to potentially be better and therefore makes the league more money, that's what the league will do. This could be about a lot of things, and I'm willing to admit that it's not ALL about racism...but it's not about the welfare of young people.

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2) to protect the teams from doing stupid things paying millions of dollars to rookies

Point number 2 is the same reason tese leagues have salary caps - to protect the owners from themselves.

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So, a bunch of rich white men are instituting an overtly ageist policy that harms work opportunities for (predominantly) young black men, all to Protect THEMSELVES against their own greed and stupidity? And that ISN'T de facto racism?

I obviously have a different definition of de facto racism than some others on this forum.

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I know there's no way to change your mind. You see racism, you hate "the man" and you won't see anything else. But try &amp; think rationally about the issue.

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Hey, try to not be so pejorative and egotistical with your comments. Just because I do not arrive at the same conclusion as you do does not make me irrational. In fact, I've made some very cogent points here, some of which has not been responded to by anyone. Fine for us to see things differently, but my arguments have certainly been rational and well-reasoned...and there are a (growing) number of people talking about these issues in the same light as I am.

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As for the dress code in the NBA: every person with a job has to meet certain standards for dress at their workplace. It won't kill people making a couple million dollars a year to wear a suit to work. Work is not where you "express yourself".

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I'll refer you to my earlier comments...the natural standards for NBA dress is the uniform they wear during the game. After the game, I agree that they shouldn't wear anything "offensive," but I don't think David Stern and a bunch of stuffy old white guy owners should have the right to define an entire culture of black fashion as "offensive" and "intolerable." It's a targeted effort to "whitewash" the league. No matter the reason, there's a racist element in that.