An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

You can either be handed 1 million dollars right now, or you can be guaranteed a place in heaven if it exists. (We'll define heaven as any paradise described by any earthly religion).

If you take the million, you're definitely going to hell if it exists. If you don't take it, you're definitely going to heaven if it exists.

Please respond with reasoning/arguments. I'm including a poll, but I don't want this to just be a vote-and-leave thread.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

My silly reasoning (I usually just lurk here): I find the ideas of heaven and hell hard enough to believe as it is. But now I'm guaranteed a place in heaven if I refuse the million so I assume that includes the case where I refuse the million and then proceed to rape and pillage the rest of my life. Or on the other hand, I'm guaranteed a place in hell if I accept the million and then proceed to give it to charity and live a totally 'heaven-deserving' life otherwise.

Since I find this even LESS believable, gimme da money. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

Of course if I was guaranteed heaven I'd take it. Besides, after taxes and law school I probably wouldn't have much left over [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

ummm yeeah, Im going with heaven.

I mean, Im a computer science student who also plays poker for a living... my millions will come.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

1 million dollars is not a completely life changing amount to me, but I would still take it anyway because I am so confident that I am right.

I can't even fathom the possibility of heaven and hell. I think the possibility of a god existing is pretty absurd, and heaven / hell is just 1,000 times more outlandish.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

It's harder for me to discount, growing up a devout Catholic and all that.

I hate it when my upbringing battles my rationality.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I'm taking the money, but I'm curious as to why you have to believe in heaven and hell if you're a theist. People who do think there's a god should have a vote.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

My thoughts:

1) What is "hell"? Some religions say it's just non-existence. I'd take the million for sure. If it's eternal torture... Then:

2) Who is offering this? How are they involved in my eternal destiny? Do I trust them? Unless I'm pretty sure they are telling the truth, and can somehow use this to determine my eternal destiny, then I'm taking the money.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

For those that turned down the money: note that it's heaven if it exists. Also, I'm guessing a number of people who chose to turn down the money are theists already.

So, for the atheists that chose the money (like me): how little would it take before you refused the money, and took the "guarantee" instead?

I'd almost definitely take the $1million... but I'd probably turn down $100. So, what about $1000? $10,000? $100,000?

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

Basically, from an EV perspective, there's much greater value if you forego the money. If Heaven exists you benefit for a much longer period of time (eternity) than the time you have left on earth to enjoy the million. Also, if we believe in Heaven we have to agree that the happiness that we experience there is infinite, while the happiness, if any, we can get from $1 million is clearly finite. Plus there are other ways to get a million but no other way to get to heaven if we take the million.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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For those that turned down the money: note that it's heaven if it exists. Also, I'm guessing a number of people who chose to turn down the money are theists already.

So, for the atheists that chose the money (like me): how little would it take before you refused the money, and took the "guarantee" instead?

I'd almost definitely take the $1million... but I'd probably turn down $100. So, what about $1000? $10,000? $100,000?

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$1

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

The existence of a bet that could guarantee a place in heaven if it exists, would be strong evidence that heaven exists.

chez

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

First of all, you should probably put more money as an option rather than just 1 million. Anyways, that said, i voted heaven if it exists. However, I am a complete athiest. I dont think a true athiest (true being one who doesnt believe in god but is open to the fact that they cannot know) could possibly turn down heaven in the prospect that it may in fact exist. Here's a better question:

1 million dollars and hell if it exists OR
Nothing but a chance to go to heaven if it does exist

The second option changes things a bit. Would an athiest abandon his/her beliefs at the prospect of there being a heaven? Would an athiest sacrifice material goods if it denied any chance they had at getting in heaven if there indeed was one? Its like taking a risk if you take the million where as not taking is playing it safe.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

Infinity is a long time. I think the second option is the +EU play.

I'm assuming eternal heaven and hell, and that difference is so huge as to render the money almost meaningless. If there is (almost) any nonzero probability that they exist, I'm inclined to guarantee heaven if I can. Since I do believe there is at least a very small probability they exist, I am taking Heaven+No_Money.

I'm trying to think how small the chance of their existence would have to be before I would take the money. I'm thinking it's in the one-in-a-trillion range.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I took the mill. I'm that certain.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I thought this question was supposed to be "interesting"?

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I took heaven. I'm assuming I get all the benefits of heaven when I get there. Forever. If heaven is truly heaven, and hell is truly hell, then it's worth more than $1,000,000 to me. Or $1,000,000,000,000,000.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

It's easy betting with the nuts - I take the million. Hell does not exist.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I've revised my low number. $5, as long as it's a single bill.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

Definitely would choose hell, even if there was not one dollar to take for it Infact I would even give money to avoid heaven). There is no way I would ever submit, or side, with a god, even if it did exist. I think it an abomination to even think it possible that something was responsible for the world as it is. I think this is the only possible moral position.

Just need to take away, or negate, cultural conditionning, and take a good look around [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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For those that turned down the money: note that it's heaven if it exists. Also, I'm guessing a number of people who chose to turn down the money are theists already.

So, for the atheists that chose the money (like me): how little would it take before you refused the money, and took the "guarantee" instead?

I'd almost definitely take the $1million... but I'd probably turn down $100. So, what about $1000? $10,000? $100,000?

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I'd take any value > 0. Any other answer is inconsistent.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I'll take both.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

A no-catch million dollars would be really nice, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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For those that turned down the money: note that it's heaven if it exists. Also, I'm guessing a number of people who chose to turn down the money are theists already.

So, for the atheists that chose the money (like me): how little would it take before you refused the money, and took the "guarantee" instead?

I'd almost definitely take the $1million... but I'd probably turn down $100. So, what about $1000? $10,000? $100,000?

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I'd take any value > 0. Any other answer is inconsistent.

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Not inconsistent. I wouldn't want to be bothered with listening to this schmuck for < $5. I don't like my wallet being full of single bills, either... so a single $5 bill is my minimum.

Along the same lines, if I'm at the checkout line, and my change is 4 cents... and the clerk says that if I give her the 4 cents, then I will be guaranteed a place in heaven... then I'd give her the 4 cents.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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The existence of a bet that could guarantee a place in heaven if it exists, would be strong evidence that heaven exists.

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I would think just the opposite. All I have to do is refuse the 1 million. I can then go rape every little girl I see and steal millions from charities and murder anybody I want and I'm still guaranteed a place in heaven? The existence of such a bet would lead me to believe that heaven does NOT exist (even more than I already believe it).

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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The existence of a bet that could guarantee a place in heaven if it exists, would be strong evidence that heaven exists.

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I would think just the opposite. All I have to do is refuse the 1 million. I can then go rape every little girl I see and steal millions from charities and murder anybody I want and I'm still guaranteed a place in heaven? The existence of such a bet would lead me to believe that heaven does NOT exist (even more than I already believe it).

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I don't believe in god, heaven or hell and am happy to take the money from anyone who is not god, but no non-god is in a position to offer the bet.

So the existence of the bet implies the existence of god. That makes the existence of heaven and hell far more likely.

I agree with your point but who knows how this god works.

chez

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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I don't believe in god, heaven or hell and am happy to take the money from anyone who is not god, but no non-god is in a position to offer the bet.

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No non-god is in a position to GUARANTEE the bet (the heaven part, I mean)... but as long as they have money, and make this claim, then they are in a position to offer the bet.

If someone offered the bet, I'd be pretty confident that they were a non-god. And once I saw the money, I'd think they were a rich non-god. Then, I'd take the money and thank the non-god for his offer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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The existence of a bet that could guarantee a place in heaven if it exists, would be strong evidence that heaven exists.

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I would think just the opposite. All I have to do is refuse the 1 million. I can then go rape every little girl I see and steal millions from charities and murder anybody I want and I'm still guaranteed a place in heaven? The existence of such a bet would lead me to believe that heaven does NOT exist (even more than I already believe it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Another that finds child rape and murder attractive!

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can either be handed 1 million dollars right now, or you can be guaranteed a place in heaven if it exists. (We'll define heaven as any paradise described by any earthly religion).

If you take the million, you're definitely going to hell if it exists. If you don't take it, you're definitely going to heaven if it exists.

Please respond with reasoning/arguments. I'm including a poll, but I don't want this to just be a vote-and-leave thread.

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30 for the money, 23 for the Heaven. Looks like we've got 30 atheists and 23 agnostics here.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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30 for the money, 23 for the Heaven. Looks like we've got 30 atheists and 23 agnostics here.

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I'd guess the majority of those 23 are theists.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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I don't believe in god, heaven or hell and am happy to take the money from anyone who is not god, but no non-god is in a position to offer the bet.

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No non-god is in a position to GUARANTEE the bet (the heaven part, I mean)... but as long as they have money, and make this claim, then they are in a position to offer the bet.

If someone offered the bet, I'd be pretty confident that they were a non-god. And once I saw the money, I'd think they were a rich non-god. Then, I'd take the money and thank the non-god for his offer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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A God could make this offer and you still might not know whether a heaven or a hell existed. Also, it's possible that someone could be sent or empowered by a God to make this offer to you, making it's effects binding (or not binding, considering the question).

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

this is an uninteresting question, please don't deceive others in the future.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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this is an uninteresting question, please don't deceive others in the future.

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It's 2:29 against you. In other words, shutup.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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this is an uninteresting question, please don't deceive others in the future.

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It's 2:29 against you. In other words, shutup.

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It's interesting, because it's Pascal's wager revised -- instead of "believing" (which would be almost impossible for me to do), all I have to do is not take $1 million. It's interesting that some atheists/agnostics would refuse the $1 million.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

Indeed KipBond,

I would not even want to deal with the god dude (tyrant or whatever ... if he did exists) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ... wouldn't trust it (the monster) at all.

Just a completely different perspective as per my previous answer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

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this is an uninteresting question, please don't deceive others in the future.

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It's 2:29 against you. In other words, shutup.

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It's interesting, because it's Pascal's wager revised -- instead of "believing" (which would be almost impossible for me to do), all I have to do is not take $1 million. It's interesting that some atheists/agnostics would refuse the $1 million.

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I'm agnostic, and I think I'd not take the million. It'd be hard to say no with the suitcase in front of me, but I think I would.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

I'm taking the million without a second thought. My (albeit strange) belief if that even IF a heaven existed, the idea of hell is absurd, and I'm perfectly content to just rot in the ground when I die. What will I care, I'm dead?

If gods actually existed, why would they want you to spend time in Hell? It's simply counter-intuitive to think that gods WANT you to suffer for simply not believing in them. A "perfect being" would see that this is an unjust position and therefore not allow it to happen.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

If I believed there were, or might be, a heaven, I'd believe anyway. I don't believe in hell. I'm taking the money.

Re: An interesting question for Atheists/Agnostics
 

if hell is suffering for all of eternity, and the chance that it exists is more than 0, EV wise i think you cant take the money. I would prolly take the money tho.