$55... Long Time No Post
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Hero (t1000)
Button (t1000)
SB (t1000)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls t15, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t60</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t60.

Turn: (t195) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

UTG +1 checks, Hero?

Final Pot: t195

Couldda popped her pf, but I don't think it matters much either way. Flop bet seemed standard. Turn seemed a bit more interesting.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

I would shutdown, I'm not looking to burn any more chips this early at all. No Reason to pop pf either in L1 imo

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

I'm guessing you don't have any reads at this point. On one hand, you don't want to burn too many chips this early. On the other, I doubt you're behind. I'd bet about half the pot and see what happens.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

no need to bet into all the donks with this hand. Someone will call and you will have no way of knowing where you stand. A flush draw wil likelt have pair outs you can't see and you can't really bet this turn to "protect" your hand since some idiots will call down KJ and others will check raise you here with there sets.

Check and fold this hand on the flop.

And don't raise pf.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check and fold this hand on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has the best hand here more than often enough for your advice to be dead wrong. Maybe hero's line wasn't the best, but check-folding against one limper is a far worse play. Sure, weak kings could call you down, and you don't want to burn a ton of chips if that's the case, but you can't give up so easily.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]
no need to bet into all the donks with this hand. Someone will call and you will have no way of knowing where you stand. A flush draw wil likelt have pair outs you can't see and you can't really bet this turn to "protect" your hand since some idiots will call down KJ and others will check raise you here with there sets.

Check and fold this hand on the flop.

And don't raise pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check and fold this hand on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has the best hand here more than often enough for your advice to be dead wrong. Maybe hero's line wasn't the best, but check-folding against one limper is a far worse play. Sure, weak kings could call you down, and you don't want to burn a ton of chips if that's the case, but you can't give up so easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know 5 people saw this flop right?

You know were playing NLHE right?

You know you have 75bb stacks right?

You know you have to play more then one street right?



"What do I know, I'm just a doctor"

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know 5 people saw this flop right?


[/ QUOTE ]

One of which was our hero, three of the others checked the flop in front of hero. I don't see anything wrong with taking a shot at narrowing the field here. If one of the other four players gives him reason to fold, he's still got plenty of chips. If there had been a bet and a raise in front of hero, my advice would have been different.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know 5 people saw this flop right?


[/ QUOTE ]

One of which was our hero, three of the others checked the flop in front of hero. I don't see anything wrong with taking a shot at narrowing the field here. If one of the other four players gives him reason to fold, he's still got plenty of chips. If there had been a bet and a raise in front of hero, my advice would have been different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, you may consider folding after a bet and a raise?!?! Damn thats tight. I really need to trying to teach people how to play poker after my bedtime.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know 5 people saw this flop right?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see anything wrong with taking a shot at narrowing the field here. If one of the other four players gives him reason to fold, he's still got plenty of chips. If there had been a bet and a raise in front of hero, my advice would have been different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think the fact that you're more often than not gonna be throwing chips away is good enough reason not to worry about narrowing the field? It's not like you're protecting a big hand. If someone gives you a call, that's good enough reason to assume you're beat. Whether it's a king or a draw or a total donk call, you have to give it up now anyways.... so what's the point in getting involved. Do you actually expect someone to pay you off with a pair of 7s to make up for the times that you're throwing chips away?

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

I might bet like 150 on the turn. What hands do you put villian on here? Flush Draw? weak King? But what K would he play AK and KQ? 99-QQ? I havent read any responses but I also dont think you need to raise pf here. I prefer to play it for set value with it being early.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

While this might not be horrible advice when playing against people of similar skill level to yourself, I do think it's pretty bad at your average 55 SnG. You should have too much of a skill advantage to get anymore involved in this hand post flop. Check-fold flop and turn.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

This is the typical way of losing chips early with a low pocket pair. It looks so tempting, but let it go. There will be better spots later.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

Limping preflop is fine. Check/folding the flop is the best line here. I'm playing this hand for set value, nothing more, nothing less. Be happy to see 5 to the cheap flop - this is the perfect situation with 88. When you don't hit that 8 though on the flop, it's hasta la vista eights.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

This hand felt really ghetto and I think a couple people have explained why. I think the best explanation, because it's the most detailed, is apathy's. The problem is that I will very likely get called in at least one spot and have no idea where I am. I will not be able to bet the turn and will likely have fairly poor equity against something like a flush draw with an over card, or be slaughtered by a K or the like.

In my post I said the flop bet felt standard, because it did, but I don't think it should be. I don't think the problem lies directly in the flop bet, but how that totally screws you for the rest of the hand.

I don't usually raise here pf, but I don't think raising is that much worse than limping. I do think limping is better, but are we dead set on not raising, or just thinking limping is marginally better?

Also, what do you do if the flop's checked through and the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn is checked to you again?

And given the flop line I took, let's say I check the turn. How much are we calling on a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] river?

Just a couple of hypotheticals, some more relevant than others.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

In level 1 I think 1010/JJ depending on the game should be the cut off for trying to flop an over pair and play it strong. Therefore anything less usually should be played for set value IMO. The thing about a raise PF however is you can A thin the field or B build a pot if you do happen to flop a set so as you said a preflop raise is not THAT bad considering your deep and your not going to be giving up a lot of your stack with a PF raise. Also I like that you have postion

As for the flop I don't mind the bet but I would rather check behind. The thing is donk K hands are going to check call on that board as well as flush draws which could also have 2 overs to your 88. Obviously the Kx is worse but the flush 2 overs isn't great either as your building a pot with a medicore hand without knowing where you are after being check called.

Let's say villan does have a flush with two overs. The first problem comes on the turn. You should be betting it since now he only has one street to hit his outs. However he still has 15 outs and a decent chance of making his hand. More importantly then this you still don't know where you are in the hand.

The problem obviously with checking the turn is that if you are ahead your giving free cards plus your showing such weakness that a good player might try and take the pot away from you on the river. The problem with betting is you still don't know if your putting in chips drawing to 2 outs.

As for the river line I think if you bet the turn you need to check behind on the river and if you check the turn your put in a tough spot on the river if your bet into.

All you would beat on a blank river is a missed flush draw or A7/7x sooted...something like that. I think it depends on odds to call. See how much the bet is, decide how often your against a bluff or a worse hand on the river, go with a read and stick with it.

This is all just rambling but I think the whole point is by betting the flop you might take down a small pot sometimes, you might be marginally ahead sometimes, but it posses such problems on the subsequent streets that I think checking the flop and check folding unless you improve is probably the best line with 88 here.

Re: $55... Long Time No Post
 

[ QUOTE ]

if you check the turn your put in a tough spot on the river if your bet into.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the reason I posted the hand.

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This is all just rambling but I think the whole point is by betting the flop you might take down a small pot sometimes, you might be marginally ahead sometimes, but it posses such problems on the subsequent streets that I think checking the flop and check folding unless you improve is probably the best line with 88 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is the reason I shouldn't have had to.

Problem solved. Group hug.