QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

OK, a friend who I'm playing the game with asked me to post this here. So here it is.

Button is a ridiculously loose calling station. He'll call preflop with most cards (he especially loves suited connectors and I have seen him show them down plenty of times already). Postflop he'll usually bet if he has a good piece, top pair or better, otherwise he calls you down.

SB is probably the biggest LAG in the game (which is certainly saying something). Loves to bluff a lot, but will give up most hands facing pressure (especially pressure from me because I have a reputation as a good player in the game.

Blinds are .25/.50 and I've got the biggest stack around $70, both button and sb have around $45-$50.

Pick up Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP. Folded to me, I open for $2 (4bb) - a standard raise in our game. This is a standard raisning hand from MP for me, especially since Ive got position ont he only other player I'm scared of and he has already folded. Button and SB call. Pot is $6.25.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I've got two overs and the flush draw. Sb checks, I bet $4 (2/3 pot) on the continuation bet/semi-bluff. Button raises to $10. SB cold calls. I think about 3 betting, but decide not to jeopardize my stack until I get a look at the turn, and I call. Pot is $36.

The turn is the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] making the board Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. So I have top pair and the flush draw. SB donks for $14. $50 in the pot. What's your play?

As far as the Sb's hand range, I'd say he could have pretty much anything. The nuts are a possibility, though I think hed check it considering the flop. A set, two pair, overpair to the flop, or a compelte bluff was the most liekly hand range. As far as Mr. Calling Station on the button is concerned, he could have had top pair, an overpair, two pair, a set, or two pair on the flop. Probably not much mroe than that. Remember he lvoes connectors.

What do you think?

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

On turn you are getting 50-14, or 3.57-1, so calling here doesnt seem that bad. If your q+j outs are clean, then you are making a plus ev call, and you will surely get some sort of payoff on the river if you hit.

On the downside are you prepared to fold the river ui in this giant pot to see jj take it down?

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

Oh come on this is an easy choice??? Where are the regulars?

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

This is an interesting hand. Not sure what to do, but I seem to find myself facing these sorts of situations in live action games that are really soft. A series of bets will happen that could mean literally anything. I have a weak holding with potential but the hand rage of villians is so high that it becomes really hard to know what to do.

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

I think you might be the donkey in the game. Either that or the Button isn't really a calling station. Seriously, When a Calling station calls your preflop bet and the flop comes out rags do you really think he will fold. You shouldn't have bet that flop from the middle. The turn if the flop checked around. I think even with the Q you are beat and you built a big pot thats tough to get out of.

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as Mr. Calling Station on the button is concerned, he could have had top pair, an overpair, two pair, a set, or two pair on the flop. Probably not much mroe than that. Remember he lvoes connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

so how can button not have a straight? i can't imagine your equity being higher than 20% here on average against both opponents. at least we can be somewhat confident that your flush draw is good. what is button's range on the turn for raising sb's bet if you flat call. what is his range on the turn if you raise sb?

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

sorry about the first statement. Building big pots with marginal holdings against calling stations is a big mistake that a lot of players trip up on. Usually you don't have to worry about them taking the lead away from you. So if you have a drawing hand and you know they are going to call if you bet and most likely give you a free card if you check....Why not take the free card, at least you will be saving some bets and it won't be as painful when you turn over a pair of Q's and he turns over two pair (Q8o).

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

I think this is tough. If you call and button has a made hand he will push on that draw heavy board. Damn that sb. If button wasn't a calling station and could fold a slowplayed preflop AA I'd push but as it is I would fold and watch sb very carefully, make notes on him and extract revenge later.

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

Hero wasn't trying to "build a pot" against the calling station, he was simply making his standard continuation bet (with 9 outs), on a board he thought unlikely to hit anyone.

As for the responses, I witnessed this hand, and was actually sweating hero's cards. SB's bet is pretty small, are you gonna fold every time someone gives you 3.5-1 with a made hand with plenty of outs, I think you are giving up alot.

We've gotten a few responses so far but I think the reasoning behind them has been pretty lackluster.

Someone made the point of checking the flop to take a free card. Hero does not have position, so checking this flop does not guarantee him a free card. If button bets, hero will have the option of c/c the flop, but loses all of his continuation bet folding equity (which may very well be small)

Someone did make a good point that if we flat call here button may raise the turn with a monster to shut out draws, but even if that is the case (but of course the raise wont be enough to shut out draws), by the time the action gets back around to hero he will prob be getting better than 4-1, so clearly this is the point in the hand where a decision has to be made. Does hero call, and basically commit himsself, push and hope to shut out button who may or may not have a monster, or fold getting 3.5-1 with at least 8 clean outs (assuming button or sb has a set)?


Edit: I am trying to keep this thread alive until my buddy gets off from work tonight. I do not think this turn decision is clear cut and would like to hear some more input.

Last ditch effort to ressurect this post
 

This is an interesting spot someone say something!

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

i think that it's a little more likely that the button has flopped 2 pair w/87s...my only other concern is if the SB is drawing to a bigger flush....

Re: Last ditch effort to ressurect this post
 

Like I said before...i'm not that worried about the button...but the small blind's line indicates a big draw (probably to a bigger flush) or maybe a slowplay of a monster...

Re: Last ditch effort to ressurect this post
 

This seems like a call to me. I mean its quite possible you are ahead here already and you can only improve, I definately peel off one more card here and see what happens if no club j or queen hits. If this guys as lag as you say he is i might just call the river push too

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

OK, this flop is an EASY bet in my opinion. Sine we have NO idea what these 2 have from there preflop call, there is no way I can check two overs +flush draw and feel OK about it.

The turn is much trickier. My odds seem too good to fold. Calling seems weird for a few reasons: 1. I may have the best hand. There is a good chance sb is betting a complete bluff or somet5hing like TT, 99, or something like that. button may have also had a hand like that, JJ, or any top pair of 8's. 2. Even if I dont have the best hand, Im drawing large. Against twop pair I have lots of outs. Worst case scenario, against a set or the flopped nuts I have at least 9. 3. I MAY pick up even a little bit of fold equity by pushing instead of calling. It may blow button off of two pair (unlikely but possible considering my image) and same for the sb. Any hand thats killing me is going to push behind me anyway, and im going to have to call, so why not be the agressor.

So I decided to push. More to come later.

Discuss.

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think that it's a little more likely that the button has flopped 2 pair w/87s...my only other concern is if the SB is drawing to a bigger flush....

[/ QUOTE ]

this is incorrect. there are more combinations of 56s possible considering that the flop already contains an 8 and a 7. having said that, hero should not be putting any more money in unless he improves on the river or if sb checks and the button gives us ridiculous odds for a river call. if we hit a flush then it is dependent on how big sb bets and i'm willing to call a fair amount in that spot. but this is all contingent on whether or not i will call the turn bet in the first place since we are sandwiched in between the turn bettor and the flop bettor.

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

You say that button is a calling station who will bet if he has a good hand (TP or better), or call down with not so good a hand. The fact that he raises means that he has TP or better. Its a really small raise though, is that normal?

I might push the flop, as I've probably got good FE aginst TP, and if not then I have lots of outs against various holdings, and by the time it gets back to me the pot is 30, and I've to call 6, so I could make it 42 to go for a pot raise, so I might as well push for that price and see two cards, and maybe get some1 off top pair.

On the turn, calling is fine, because we may well be ahead, and if button feels like pushing, then we want him to do it, so we can see if we get a good price to call. If we push, then he calls with better hands, and folds worse hands. I prefer calling, and yes, I probably call to the felt here.

Re: QJs Live Hand Huge Pot
 

Pushing the flop is retarded as pot is laying him like 5-1, and its likely hero has little fold equity.

As for the turn, I think the decision is push or call. given hero's read on hand ranges, Which is better?