Plan.
 

Empire 5/10 short

Button opens (19/6/1.6 100 hands), i three bet with AhQs, bb calls(37/8/1.2 500 hands), buttons calls.

Flop Qc 7d 4h

bet, call, fold

turn 8c

bet, raise, whats my line?

Re: Plan.
 

calldown time.

Re: Plan.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Empire 5/10 short

Button opens (19/6/1.6 100 hands), i three bet with AhQs, bb calls(37/8/1.2 500 hands), buttons calls.

Flop Qc 7d 4h

bet, call, fold

turn 8c

bet, raise, whats my line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Recently I've been making it a point to 3 bet in this situation.

Re: Plan.
 

if you three bet whats the plan for the rest of the hand. a couple of situations.

a/ he caps
b/ he call and raises a blank
c/ he calls and raises a club

Re: Plan.
 

Why not raise flop?

Re: Plan.
 

He's SB. He bet.

WiteKnite

Re: Plan.
 

I like call down here.

I don't think that a flush draw is likely. Wouldn't he cap preflop with AKc. AJc or maybe Atc is possible I guess.

I think that you are looking at KQ, 77, or maybe 88 here. He also could have a pocket pair like TT or 99.

If he has a Queen you are definately ahead and he will bet the river anyway==>not 3 betting only loses you one big bet.

If you are behind then you are drawing dead and not 3 betting saves you 2 big bets.

If he has a hand like 99 or TT then not 3 betting costs you 1 or 2 bets (he may fold to 3 bet).

If this guy has a clue then I would be concerned that he didn't raise the flop. If he played his hand well pf and on the flop then I have a hard time seeing how you are ahead.

I have been looking for opportunities to punish semi-bluffers a lot lately. I think the fact that a str8 draw is pretty much impossible here and that the broadway card on the board is a club is very significant.

Re: Plan.
 

I take a very interesting line in these situations that I think nobody else takes. I tend to call the turn and c/r any river and fold to 3 bet. I just think that raising the turn represents such a stronger hand that players will never 3 bet you without you beat.

Re: Plan.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I take a very interesting line in these situations that I think nobody else takes. I tend to call the turn and c/r any river and fold to 3 bet. I just think that raising the turn represents such a stronger hand that players will never 3 bet you without you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like a great line, it also keeps him betting if he has air.

Re: Plan.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I take a very interesting line in these situations that I think nobody else takes. I tend to call the turn and c/r any river and fold to 3 bet. I just think that raising the turn represents such a stronger hand that players will never 3 bet you without you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is the "free" card you give. Half-decent opponents are fully aware of the free-showdown raise in position and I can see it being employed by the BB with almost any pair here. You allow him to catch his 5 outer and THEN you're gonna checkraise?? Even checkcalling sucks because he bets when he improves to 2 pair or whatever and checks his underpairs. Other possibilities are a draw semi-bluff which of course you want to charge.

If your read is that he more or less won't raise without 2 pair or better (and I have this note for many opponents) then clearly, calling down is best or even folding river if your read is strong enough.

Re: Plan.
 

if you ahead here, I think villain rarely has 5 outs. He has 2 or 3 outs most of the time. And for the times he semibluffs with a draw, you can either charge him the extra one now, and he can make 2 more off of you on the river when he hits, or you just make that one when he misses. If you call here, you lose 2 when he hits the draw, but you gain 1 as he is probably voluntarily betting that river if he misses anyways. So this way you lose 2 when he hits and gain one when ahead. Clearly the second option is better then right?

Re: Plan.
 

he probably doesn't have a draw on this particular board though. he probably has a pair which has up to 5 outs which I'd like to charge the max. I'm holding a 'monster' shorthanded and if nothing else, I also tell people with this play that they better think twice before taking shots at me or slowing me down with the free showdown raise.

if you get raised again on the river, particularly if a 3rd club hits, I would have to say that fold is the correct play. I definitely hear what you're saying about the river checkraise, but it seems like it works best against a draw semibluff, which a) doesn't appear likely on this board and b) won't pay off the river checkraise. Get the bets in now sez I.

Re: Plan.
 

could both you and johnnyh list your ideas with regards to hand ranges and likely % and we can work out the best line.