Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

I'm trying to continuely tweak my game, so I was hoping someone could offer up some suggestions on my stats (yes, I've viewed the thread that everyone links to which shows the 2/4 and 3/6 "good" numbers, it is very informative). Here's what I've got:

Over a total of 19,067 hands in my poker tracker, here is what i show. Bear in mind this takes into account SOME 6max tables that i play here and there (probably 10-15% of the hands are 6max). Most of the hands, (approx 14,750) are full ring $1/2 or 1/2GBP tables.

VPIP: 18.21
W$FS: 33.77
WSD%: 29.18
W$SD: 61.99
AF: 2.82 not including pf
AF: 1.23 including pf
PF Raise: 6.83
Amount won: -26.09
BB/100: .26

...As you can see, I've lost $26.09 playing, and have a very low BB/100 ratio. Do note however, that just about 1,000 hands ago, as of yesterday, I was up about $290 and BB/100 of 1.11 , but I just had a HORRIBLE run at some really juicy 1/2GBP tables on Cryptos where i got drawn out on a lot... But the games were really great so I was surely happy to play in them and will come UP a lot in those type of games over the long haul. Though that has really killed my stats, so I wish i would have posted these prior to that shitty run. haha

Right now, I realize I should be going to showdown approx 2-3% more, and that my W$SD is way high (b/c i'm not going to showdown enough). I also realize my pf raising is low at approx 7%. ...It sort of surprises me that it's not higher because I certainly DO raise with 78s, 89s, 9Ts, JTs, etc after a few limpers have entered, I attempt a blind steal approx 28% of the time, and of course I raise all of the "obvious" hands. I AM missing the smaller pocket pair raises after a few limpers are in - so i could add that in. But other than that, i'm not sure why my pf raise % is so much lower than the desired 10%.

Any comments/suggested are appreciated on the pf raising issue as well as my stats as a whole. Luckily I've done plenty of bonus whoring so my essential break even over nearly 20,000 hasn't been all in vain.

Thanks

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

raise a lot more preflop and go to showdown more.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

for full ring, the combination of AF and W$@SD being so high mean that you may not be peeling with odds to do so on the flop, or could be folding a couple possible winners..

Calling isnt the worst thing in the world ya know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ... I think people on here value raising everything postflop a little too much

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

I think your AF is too high. For $1-$2, I don't think you need to be as aggressive. I was a slightly winning player and then I tried to becaime super-aggressive like many around here suggest and started losing. A lot of times at $1-$2 I feel like I probably have the best hand and if there's a guy that I assume is on a bluff/contiunation, I'll just call and allow him to bet his chips off. Normal strategy is to re-raise when you think you have the best of it... but it is my opinion that at the lower limits, this isn't always the best strategy. Of course I'm no expert, only 15K hands at 3 BB/100, but I've been successful so far with a V$IP of 17%, PFR of 6% and AF of 1.8.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

I agree. 61% is too high 52-56 is ideal.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

[ QUOTE ]
for full ring, the combination of AF and W$@SD being so high mean that you may not be peeling with odds to do so on the flop, or could be folding a couple possible winners..

Calling isnt the worst thing in the world ya know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ... I think people on here value raising everything postflop a little too much

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm I totally agree that my W$SD is too high, I need to see more show downs. However, saying that the AF is too high seems a bit off to me... I'm at 2.8 - 2.5 to 3.0 AF (not including pf numbers) is pretty much right on with what i see suggested by most. in fact, when you include my pf, i'm only 1.23, which is LOW for what most ppl suggest (1.5 ppl say is the goal).

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think your AF is too high. For $1-$2, I don't think you need to be as aggressive. I was a slightly winning player and then I tried to becaime super-aggressive like many around here suggest and started losing. A lot of times at $1-$2 I feel like I probably have the best hand and if there's a guy that I assume is on a bluff/contiunation, I'll just call and allow him to bet his chips off. Normal strategy is to re-raise when you think you have the best of it... but it is my opinion that at the lower limits, this isn't always the best strategy. Of course I'm no expert, only 15K hands at 3 BB/100, but I've been successful so far with a V$IP of 17%, PFR of 6% and AF of 1.8.

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Damn man, I don't know.. granted your 3BB/100 is amazing over 15,000, you must be running real good and have your game working for you.. Do you really have 3BB/100? anything over 2BB/100 is nearly impossible over the long haul. anyway..... But suggesting to follow weak/passive play with pf raise of 6% and AF 1.8 (not including pf) is definitely not the direction i should be going, IMO.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think your AF is too high. For $1-$2, I don't think you need to be as aggressive. I was a slightly winning player and then I tried to becaime super-aggressive like many around here suggest and started losing. A lot of times at $1-$2 I feel like I probably have the best hand and if there's a guy that I assume is on a bluff/contiunation, I'll just call and allow him to bet his chips off. Normal strategy is to re-raise when you think you have the best of it... but it is my opinion that at the lower limits, this isn't always the best strategy. Of course I'm no expert, only 15K hands at 3 BB/100, but I've been successful so far with a V$IP of 17%, PFR of 6% and AF of 1.8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn man, I don't know.. granted your 3BB/100 is amazing over 15,000, you must be running real good and have your game working for you.. Do you really have 3BB/100? anything over 2BB/100 is nearly impossible over the long haul. anyway..... But suggesting to follow weak/passive play with pf raise of 6% and AF 1.8 (not including pf) is definitely not the direction i should be going, IMO.

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People can easily run very well over 15k hands. I don't agree with his adivce of playing a weak tight style, which might be succesful as 1/2, but will be easily exploitable as you move up in limits. You should concentrate on opening up your preflop raising standards (I raise 77-AA, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo UTG and open things up as I have better position) and look for some marginal, but profitable situations on the flop and turn that you are probably passing up (this will help get you to showdown more). You also are probably bet/folding and check/folding to big street raises too much, but this is hard to tell for sure without you posting hands.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

Well I would recommend that someone who is losing/breaking even learned to play tighter poker than most around here recommend. At first I was a break even/losing player, then I read Internet Texas Hold Em by Matt Hilger and instantly started winning. I played almost exactly as this book instructs, started winning and my stats were much more "weak-tight" than most 2+2. As I've got more comfortable, I have opened up and now I play more like V$IP of 19%, PFR of 7% and AF of 1.9. I tried raising in EP with hands like KQ, AJ, ATs, 77, etc and found that I was getting mudered. My best advice to this guy would be to read ITH, play exactly how it instructs than read Small Stakes Hold Em and start incorporating more advanced strategies into your game. (Maybe you should consider dropping down to $.50/$1 and multi-tabling - I can't imagine playing 19K hands and being down $$!) Also, what I've done is relied a lot on implied odds on the flop, knowing that if I hit my hand I will have two more rounds of betting at increased $$... my flop AF is 1.5 while my AF on the turn is 2.3.

This might sound strange and I'm sure I'll get ripped for it and everyone will tell me how I am a losing player in the long run, but this is what has worked for me. (For the record, my 3BB/100 is 4.1BB/100 at $.50/$1 and 1.6BB at $$1/$2)

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

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Bear in mind this takes into account SOME 6max tables that i play here and there (probably 10-15% of the hands are 6max).

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Bearing this in mind makes analyizing the stats you posted essentially worthless. 6max is a completely different animal from full-ring - and as such your stats are going to differ greatly. The fact that 10-15% of your hands are at 6max combined with the fact that 20,000 hands isn't a large sample to being with is really distorting what your real problems/leaks may be.

PT provides the ability to sort your stats by level and/or game type. If you're going to post stats for analysis you need to give stats from one limit/one gametype and at time.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I would recommend that someone who is losing/breaking even learned to play tighter poker than most around here recommend. At first I was a break even/losing player, then I read Internet Texas Hold Em by Matt Hilger and instantly started winning. I played almost exactly as this book instructs, started winning and my stats were much more "weak-tight" than most 2+2. As I've got more comfortable, I have opened up and now I play more like V$IP of 19%, PFR of 7% and AF of 1.9. I tried raising in EP with hands like KQ, AJ, ATs, 77, etc and found that I was getting mudered. My best advice to this guy would be to read ITH, play exactly how it instructs than read Small Stakes Hold Em and start incorporating more advanced strategies into your game. (Maybe you should consider dropping down to $.50/$1 and multi-tabling - I can't imagine playing 19K hands and being down $$!) Also, what I've done is relied a lot on implied odds on the flop, knowing that if I hit my hand I will have two more rounds of betting at increased $$... my flop AF is 1.5 while my AF on the turn is 2.3.

This might sound strange and I'm sure I'll get ripped for it and everyone will tell me how I am a losing player in the long run, but this is what has worked for me. (For the record, my 3BB/100 is 4.1BB/100 at $.50/$1 and 1.6BB at $$1/$2)

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Thanks for the advice man. I've read all of the books you speak of. The Malmuth/Sklansky book is the bible I play by, always have. Not a newbie here, been playing brick and mortar 12/24 limit on a very regular basis for 3+ years. I do fine in live games, and actually do just fine on the internet NORMALLY. I had a decent stat list going until the last 1,000 hands, which i referenced in my original post - that last 1,000 hands on a bad run took me from 1.11 BB/100 to .26. So no, i wouldn't say i'm a "losing" player, though these last 1,000 have crippled any profit i had run.

From the sounds of it, my game is very similar to your current play of 19% VPIP, 7% pf raise and AF aggression. Though my AF is much higher than yours. I am very much in the 19 VPIP and 7% range.

Again, not getting beaten up by any means, but was wondering if anyone had any great insights. It sounds like there's not much to be found here based on my stats alone - other than go to showdown about 3% more of the time and get my W$SD% down about 4% or so. Raising pf on a view extra hands is necessary it looks like too.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

check out this post for average stats of winning 2+2'ers.... here

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind this takes into account SOME 6max tables that i play here and there (probably 10-15% of the hands are 6max).

[/ QUOTE ]
Bearing this in mind makes analyizing the stats you posted essentially worthless. 6max is a completely different animal from full-ring - and as such your stats are going to differ greatly. The fact that 10-15% of your hands are at 6max combined with the fact that 20,000 hands isn't a large sample to being with is really distorting what your real problems/leaks may be.

PT provides the ability to sort your stats by level and/or game type. If you're going to post stats for analysis you need to give stats from one limit/one gametype and at time.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right. I shouldn't have just dumped all of the stats for ALL levels. Here is an analysis of JUST 1/2USD and 1/2GBP full ring. Still the same leaks are readily noticeable, but at least it's showing a small BB/100 and profit

15,033 hands
VPIP 16.6%
W$WSF 34.75
PFR 6.69
WSD% 28.64
W$WSD% 64.51
AF 2.74 w/o pf
AF 1.27 w/pf
Att. steal blinds - 26.84
$ Won: +$156.20
BB/100: .52

...I'm showing a small profit and BB/100, so i guess that's better than losing, but clearly it's not optimal. Looks like my WSD% is 4-5% too low and my W$SD% is 9% too high. PF raise is low by many standards at approx 7%, though i know there are some that argue that 7% is decent at the smaller limits (for example, i think 77 pf raise UTG is probably not all that profitable at small limits b/c of all of the cold calling that occurs with any 2 broadway cards, whereas at 10/20 and above that is more than likely a pretty profitable way to play b/c you can kill many hands like KJo from limping in).

Any more insights?

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

You need to:

1. Raise more pre-flop.

2. Call a bit more liberally on later streets.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

You are definitley not going to showdown enough if your winning 61% of the time when you show down...

Your PFR is horrible, need to get that up to around 13-14% I believe. You should also be stealing more often, 28% isn't very good.

You need to be more aggressive post flop I believe, right now I think you're a rock - you need to be a shark. Be ferocious, that's how you win the money. AGF should be something like 3-4.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are definitley not going to showdown enough if your winning 61% of the time when you show down...

Your PFR is horrible, need to get that up to around 13-14% I believe. You should also be stealing more often, 28% isn't very good.

You need to be more aggressive post flop I believe, right now I think you're a rock - you need to be a shark. Be ferocious, that's how you win the money. AGF should be something like 3-4.

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I don't think 13-14% pfr is necessarily right for everyone in every game. Many here have pfr's in the range of like 8-12 (mine's like 12 I think). Such advice might encourage the OP to start raising in too many marginal situations.

Pfr is a stat that should go up with time and experience (particularly if you start playing some 6max and get some experience with isolation and so on). Trying to force that to unnaturally high levels might actually have a very detrimental immediate effect on the OP.

The OP should consider the following:

1. Don't open limp in MP or later EVER, and start to consider what early position hands are really worth open limping.

2. Certain hands like suited broadway cards and some pairs like 88 and 99 probably deserve value raises in late position and are not getting them.

3. Consider whether raising in certain positions can help to get you to play more pots with the weaker players at the table (can you isolate a maniac by three-betting with AJ? Can a raise force out two tight players behind you and get to play against two fishy limpers three-way? and so on).

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

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check out this post for average stats of winning 2+2'ers.... here

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The stats post is all that is needed in these stats threads. We don't people with 8 posts and only 15K hands telling people that aggressive play isn't good.

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
check out this post for average stats of winning 2+2'ers.... here

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The stats post is all that is needed in these stats threads. We don't people with 8 posts and only 15K hands telling people that aggressive play isn't good.

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Agreed... Rob or Evan, please sticky the stats post!

Re: Help/Comments on PT stats (nearly 20,000 hands)
 

Still, the way his PFR is now isn't too good. Needs to boost it up. Best way to do this is to really think about your play, though. So, I agree with yah...