Going back from 6max to full
 

I'm trying to play full games again and I realized I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. I call down with ace high way too much. Every time I get raised on the turn, it's nearly always at least TP. I'm used to retards CRing me with the nut low. Can someone who has gone through the same transition (back to full from playing short forever) tell me what adjustments needs to be made?

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Initially I found the switch quite difficult as well - I experienced going from full table to 6-max being easier because I was focused on playing more hands and remaining in the mindset "I probably have the best hand here" even if flop wasn't hitting me and so forth.

The biggest adjustment going back to full table is, respect turn CR more (as you mentioned), and but in HU - don't fold if you have a decent pair if the pot is large, but avoid calling down if you have nothing but overcards (obviously it depends on the situation and what stats you may have on your opponents). I also find it easier if I focus on calculating my odds to actually make the best hand and get out of a big multihand early if it is not favorable.

I'm not sure whether you'll find much use of my answer, but I thought I'd share my thoughts on it anyhow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Start trusting your opponents more.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Moving from short to full made me realize that full poker is horrible and makes my eyes bleed. Why would you do this to yourself?

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

I feel exactly the opposite way.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Just when you think you know somebody.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

I suck at 6-max [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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I suck at 6-max [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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amen, I feel for you brotha. But I strive to get better. Interestingly enough I am finding my short skills apply better than I thought they would in full ring games.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

The thing is that the higher you play, the more short handed games (and short handed pots) you'll find yourself playing. 6 max games just feel like a MUCH better learning environment.

The only benefit to full games is the ability to play more tables at once, and doing that will make you grown hair in places you don't like and itch a lot.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

I feel more than comfortable playing short at higher limit games, it's sitting at those little 6-man tables with hyper-aggressive retards that makes me start playing like a moron.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

yesterday i tried to play some full because SH is beginning to drag. to compensate for the slower play i played 10 tables. too bad even 10 tables of full is like watching paint dry.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

the only time i play omaha online i play 6-max but when i play lhe i play full ring. i don't feel comfortable reversing them for some reason.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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I'm trying to play full games again

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Why?

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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I'm trying to play full games again

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Why?

[/ QUOTE ]I figure there might be a time where I might have to play in a full game.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Online full is for people who are afraid to play any hand worse than 99(Or so it seems at most sites these days). I love full players when a table goes to short, its fold, fold oh my god he raised under the gun leave the table............ [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Poker is about playing profitable games.

The SH turnips would have you believe there are no profitable full games. They are wearing blinkers. If you cannot beat BOTH games for a good clip, then your game is incomplete.

Your SH experience will make you a much stronger player in full games. Once you have re-established your full credentials your SH game will ALSO be stronger.

Much advice on the SH forum is for LAGtards who do not bother reading opponents and vary their play accordingly. Certainly you can get away with non-reading a lot more in SH games, and certainly it is easier to quickly classify players SH but that does not mean the advice in HUSH is always correct; frequently it is applicable only to specific game-types (and most do not know what the difference means). SH games vary A LOT, some would have you believe otherwise. Some would have you believe 30/20 is optimum for everyone and every game.

In full games I would suggest you think on these notions:
(1) Respect raises more, unless you have a specific read.
(2) Turn CR are much more likely to mean the business.
(3) 3-bet with caution when holding less than the nuts.
(4) TP is frequently not good enough to a Turn/River raise.
(5) Steal those blinds.
(6) AQ is not a big hand to a PF 3-bet.
(7) Be willing to fold a LOT of hands (post-Flop) you would normally want to SD in SH games.
(8) Make sure you are fully aware of the odds - take into account some unlikely hands/draws against you. This is a very important area and deserves close attention/revisiting.
(9) Games are MUCH better when you have position on the worst players.

Nothing else really stands out - table selection etc.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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I feel more than comfortable playing short at higher limit games, it's sitting at those little 6-man tables with hyper-aggressive retards that makes me start playing like a moron.

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actually, the 1/2 short games are more aggressive than the 50/100 short games, which are more aggro than the 30, which are more aggro than the 20, whcih are more aggro than the 15, etc. so it's not a matter of 6-max

you really ought to try playing short more often. I definitely think it's critical for your development. I hadn't played much 6-max when I started playing 15/30 in January and couldn't handle it. I played a lot of 6-max and posted probably like 4k posts in HUSH and it helps a ton in the full games.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

at 15/30 and up the full games play more like short games and less adjustments are necessary. if you're playing 5/10 or 10/20 full then it's going to be harder to adjust. when I started playing full tables I had to learn and I just 8 tabled 3/6 a few times for an hour and practiced being weak tight. it helped.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

I think there's good in some of what you said but:

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(3) 3-bet with caution when holding less than the nuts.

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Eh.

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(6) AQ is not a big hand to a PF 3-bet.

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This is the understatement of the day. I'm not sure whether you should say that AQ is not a big hand against a raise (which isn't great) or AQ is complete and utter garbage to a 3-bet (which is prob closer).

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

I don't play much 6-max, but I do frequently play shorthanded full tables.

My advice is just to be aware of your opponents. Things like this:

If you are in the BB with a fairly marginal hand and a 17/5/1 guy with maybe a 26-30% ASB raises from the cutoff, I strongly consider folding even if that hand would be something that I definetly would play against a more aggressive player even a hand like A5o or Q7s something like that or a little better. Reason being, is the guy raising from the CO has not read Natethagrate's posts on blindstealing/blind defense, and really is not interested in playing more hands. He is playing his cards, and they are probably pretty good. Along with the fact this player probably will not spew chips after the flop... a lot of your thin to neutral EV hands, cross the line to negative at that point.

Change that player to a 19/15/2 and it becomes different.

So my advice would be this, for your first few sessions, don't try to be "weak tight" or start thinking you have to play all different in a full game. Just be more concious of your opponents, take a second and digest their stats and ask yourself what they are probably doing. Focus on thinking conceptually instead of cookie cutter 6-max vs. full ring dogma.

As an aside, I only have about 9,000-10,000 hands of true 6-max between 5/10 and 10/20. I have not checked lately but I think about 20% of my games at 5/10 full have been played short, so call it 25,000 hands most played in the last 3-months. I don't think you necessarily need to play 6-max to get your SH experience. I really think it depends how you approach the games. A lot of people seem to have the thought process that they will play one cookie cutter methode when the game is 6 or less and another when it is 7 or more.

Kind of goes back to the PF starting chart thing, the sooner you think conceptually and about how certain concepts apply to your specific situation, the easier the gear shifting becomes.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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(3) 3-bet with caution when holding less than the nuts.

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The word here is caution. I say nothing about not 3-betting at the right times. 3-betting in SH is very run-of-the-mill and pretty much automatic in many spots. This is not so in full, comparatively speaking (at least in the $5/$10 games I see). Many spots where a 3-bet is auto in SH need more consideration in full: what type of player is raising you? There are a bunch of micro-AF players who will only raise with very big hands and a 3-bet is always capped. There are also players smart enough to exploit more aggressive play (when over-used, which is easy coming from SH).

EDIT: Perhaps less than the nuts is overdoing it a bit, but I was trying to convey the comparative experience I have had returning to full games. SH people raise with all sorts - so you need to 3-bet liberally.


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(6) AQ is not a big hand to a PF 3-bet.

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Indeed, I was deliberately under-stating this in an attempt to be ironic. There are some good sarcasm meters about on the forum, you may be able to get hold of one and tweak it for irony as well... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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when I started playing full tables I had to learn and I just 8 tabled 3/6 a few times for an hour and practiced being weak tight. it helped.

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lol

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

After reading this post and replying to it on what ever day it was, I did some serious thinking about how I approach game selection and limits.

This is probably standard for most of you, but sometimes stuff takes a while to click for me and when it does I get excited.

Since the Skins debacle, I have been playing more off sites, especially the ones I have RB or good bonuses. The game quality is as good as if not better than Party (for 5/10full). The only thing that I missed was the "game liquidity"... ie being able to click on the waiting list and be on a table 30 seconds later.

So after reading this post, I decided to add the 6-max tables to my mix. I four table, so usually I try to keep it to 2 short (either short at full tables or 6-max) and 2 full tables. Although I don't mind 3-1, and probably eventually I won't mind 4 short at a time.

Anyway, this went well. So then I got to thinking, I have been conservative in moving up. I have over a 1100BB bankroll for 5/10. I need to average a certain amount each month (a bad month or two won't kill me), in withdrawls to pay some bills and I have been trying to balance this with bankroll growth.

It eventually dawned on me, that adding 10/20 full into the mix would be good. I had been waiting for one day when I would just decide I am 10/20 player now. But thinking about this stuff, finally a lot of the stuff Sfer, Sthief, and others have written about not limiting yourself to just one limit... finally clicked for me.

Anyway, slightly low content, but I get it now. I play the games if they are good at the limits my bankroll allows (with 5/10 being the minimum... all my projections are based on 5/10... I would have to crush a 3/6 game to make it worth my time... and well I am just not a game crusher).

Gee... it only took me 17 months to "get it". Who says I am slow [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

I havent made the change, but I suspect that a lot of your problems could be solved by folding more in EP. Reread SSH.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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Much advice on the SH forum is for LAGtards who do not bother reading opponents and vary their play accordingly. Certainly you can get away with non-reading a lot more in SH games,

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Umm... no?

Reads are a lot more important the more SH pots you're going to play. Some of the advice in HUSH tends to be lousy and too agressive, but I think your statement is WAY off base.

It isn't that rings games are more profitable, it's that short handed games are just MORE FUN TO PLAY.

In a SH game I can exploit the bad players easier, I get in more hands vs. bad players, and I don't get bored with the pace of play.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Please try 10/20 sometime. But when you do, don't muti-table 3 others at 5/10 or whatever. Just play one table and play poker. I generally bounce back and forth between 5/10 and 15/30 depending on my mood, the games and my recent swing.

No bones about it, 10/20 is a tougher game on the whole than 5/10. There should be no illusions there.

Also, when you do move up, practise patience. I can't tell you how many times I see a seat that is trying to outplay people with chips and they remind me of myself a year ago spewing my roll into other's stacks.

- Jim

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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Please try 10/20 sometime. But when you do, don't muti-table 3 others at 5/10 or whatever. Just play one table and play poker. I generally bounce back and forth between 5/10 and 15/30 depending on my mood, the games and my recent swing.

No bones about it, 10/20 is a tougher game on the whole than 5/10. There should be no illusions there.

Also, when you do move up, practise patience. I can't tell you how many times I see a seat that is trying to outplay people with chips and they remind me of myself a year ago spewing my roll into other's stacks.

- Jim

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This may be a bit of hyperbole, but I am not sure I can optimally on one table anymore.

The only time I one table is if I play a tournament (about once every two months or so). I enjoy four tabling, simply because the pace is slow enough where I can relax a bit; but not so slow that my mind starts to wander.

I have already made a couple forays into the 10/20 games, and I have not had any trouble with focus yet.

On the other hand, I understand where you are coming from. But the best way for me not to get fancy is to keep busy.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

Wy would you want to go back to full? 6-max at Party is my personal ATM machine (although higher variance can suck). Full-ring is like collecting pennies on the beach but even more boring.

Re: Going back from 6max to full
 

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(9) Games are MUCH better when you have position on the worst players.

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I'm one who prefers a full table. To each his own. I like the relaxed pace...has nothing to do with not willing to get my hands dirty with marginal holdings.

At any rate, #9 on your list here was the biggest thing I noticed when I played short handed for a couple weeks a little while ago. I loved the fact that you can mingle with the fish or 2 a lot more and your seat didn't have nearly as drastic an impact as it did in a full game.