Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Hello

I am just back from my first vegas vacation (2 weeks). We had a great time in a great town. First of all the low limit games on daytime inside the week was not good, on the weekends they were good. I was shocked about the unbelievable high rakes / tipps, mostly they remove 3-4$ + 1$ for jackpots + 1$ tipps that was unbelievable 600$ in 2 hours. The nost players buyin with 1-200. I made a small profit, but i dont longer agree that B&M is " softer". The games are better, but the costs are killing you more. Think myself to play next time 5-10.

Wolfgang

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I think it's nearly impossible to make much profit at the 4/8 level and below at B&M. The rake and jackpot drop is just too high. At my cardroom, at 3/6, they rake 3 and take 1 for jackpot. Seeing as most people buy in for 100 or less...they are busting one player every 20 hands. That means they have to find at lease 1 new player per hour to fill that seat. How is there any money left to profit from their terrible play? I would say play online until you can play at a level you can start playing B&M at 10/20 level or above.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

The high impact of the rake makes it tough, but not impossible to earn $$ in low limit B&M. But you have to be selective. For example, dont play at a 5 handed game with no waiting if they dont lower the rake and you're not an expert at short handed play. Or if you find the players to be tough or trickier than average, dont play. If you cant find 1 or 2 donks at the table that make the game worth playing, dont play. When I play in a low-limit game, or any game where I have to pay a rake, I like to be pretty sure that I'm the best player in the game. The edge you get when you are feared at the table is worth $$$.


-J

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is B&M low limit waste of time?

[/ QUOTE ]

With one exception, yes. The exception is if you have never played before and have to learn game etitquette. Otherwise, you are grinding it out in an expensive lottery.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

5-10 is a terrible game structure and should be avoided like the plauge. Play in a multiple chip structure (the more chips in the pot, the better).

Your profit in poker comes when other people make more mistakes than you. Low limit B&M poker is beatable just because the other players make big mistakes on a regular basis.

The answer to your question, "Is low limit B&M a waste of time?" is the same as the answer to most questions regarding poker, it depends.

If you are a rocket scientist and can make large amounts of money away from the poker table, then yes it is a waste of time.

If you are like one of my friends down at Caesar's In, a retired guy and your goal is to have a good time and win a little more than you would make being the greeter at the front door in Walmart, then the answer is no.

He plays a few a hours of 2-4 or 4-8 books a modest win and goes home, So low limit poker is perfect for him. He doesn't want to put a lot of money at risk, the extra cash is nice and He has something to do that He really enjoys.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was shocked about the unbelievable high rakes / tipps, mostly they remove 3-4$ + 1$ for jackpots + 1$ tipps that was unbelievable 600$ in 2 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 30 hands/hour, an average $3 rake and $1 tip, that is $240 in 2 hours taken off the table. They don't play as many hands/hour as online. The jackpot rake goes back to the players randomly, so it can't be counted.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Wolf-

The last time someone wrote a post like they got flamed -this board must be going soft!!! I like Steam's depends answer because it is always situational - that's why I'm not a big fan of poker books and obsessive hand analysis.

BTW, 2 weeks ago I took about $800 off the tourists, locals and my friends playing 2-4 at Luxor over the weekend. I tried all the other rooms but they were a grind and no fun. It just depends [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
5-10 is a terrible game structure and should be avoided like the plauge. Play in a multiple chip structure (the more chips in the pot, the better).


[/ QUOTE ]

This answer is just foolish. The only difference between this game and a game like 4-8 or 8-16 is that the SB is 2/5 of the small bet. 5-10 games can be as a donktastic as any other game, even if players don't have to physically handle a lot of chips.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I can't remember the title of the thread but I held the same belief as you and we had a giant discussion here in the B&M forum about chip structure and its impact upon action.

I was wrong. Chip structure has a huge impact upon action. Overall and on the average a multiple chip structure game will be looser than a single chip structure. Now don't say "Well last thursday the 5-10 had eight family capped pots in a row!" because everything about poker is situational. Some days the single chip structure will be loose and the multiple chip games will be tight but overall, day in and day out there will be a significant difference in the action.

Don't just take my word for it, start watching on your own and you will see. Once you begin watching for it, it is very noticeable over period of time.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Wolf, it depends on how you define waste of time. First, the low-limit mid-week Vegas games tend to be tougher than those in California, and I'd avoid those. But Vegas weekends, and California anytime, low-limit games can be taken, because there are so many (usually about six in a ten-handed game) bad players. The rake can be high, but the mistakes that are made more than make up for the drop.

Just remember that you will take some pretty heavy swings in these games, especially if you are an agressive player. These games are beat by playing a TAG style. I'd recommend reading Lee Jones' Winnning Low Limit Hold'Em to refine your play for $4-8 and lower. It's outstanding for taking on these games.

Best of luck.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

California 3-6 is definitely beatable. I'm more than $12/hour up in 300 hours play so far this calendar year playing a fairly standard TAG game (agree Lee Jones is excellent for this sort of game). But you do have to expect to take some swings along the way. And it is essential to be able to maintain your composure and not tilt when your TPTK gets taken down by 7-5 on the river two hands in a row.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
California 3-6 is definitely beatable. I'm more than $12/hour up in 300 hours play so far this calendar year playing a fairly standard TAG game

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't dispute that you can crush these games, but is 6BB/100 really sustainable?

Low-limit games are also fun when you're there with friends, or just want to drink a bit more when you're playing. Your mistakes compound less.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Look,

The composure of the games you play in is everything. I used to play in a shorthanded stud & stud 8 home micro limit game($0.50-$1). Typically there were 5 players. Each time we would play for about 4-6 hours. Out of 50 times playing, my win rate was 7 BB/hour. I had one losing session. The only other clueful player had only 3 losing sessions and similiar win results. The big loser in the game never had even one winning session and in my estimation lost an average of $40 a session(7-10 BB per hour).

Point is, games are highly beatable depending on the lineup of the game. This is something that is really easy to do in a place like Los Angeles where there may be 100 $3-6 and $4-8 tables available to you on any given night, citywide. The high drop eats at profit for sure, but some of these games are so profitable that you can win anyway. And the argument that players keep getting busted....believe me...at Commerce there will still be at least 5-10 full $3-6 and $4-8 games going every morning between 4am and 8am.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I just pulled over $400 from a 2/5 spread game last night in 4hrs. So I don't think low limits are a waste of time. You just have to adjust your game to the situation. Also, here in colorado we have $5 max bets, so I don't have a choice to play at this level.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
California 3-6 is definitely beatable. I'm more than $12/hour up in 300 hours play so far this calendar year playing a fairly standard TAG game

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't dispute that you can crush these games, but is 6BB/100 really sustainable?

Low-limit games are also fun when you're there with friends, or just want to drink a bit more when you're playing. Your mistakes compound less.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not 6BB/hour in either of the senses of BB but no matter. It may well not be sustainable, but I also feel reasonably confident that given the (lack of) quality in the games that an observant, TAG player can beat them for about one big bet an hour ($6 in this case) in the long run. A couple of people at the table playing any Ax and calling you down when you have TPBK accounts for a huge amount of profit in the long run. Also people who will call a pre-flop raise with any 2 suited cards.

I like the small limit at the moment as I am taking a sabattical year and my lack of income makes me nervous about playing too much no limit. And I don't enjoy playing online nearly as much as playing live. I'd play them if I was doing less well, but have been surprised by quite how beatable the games here are given the rake.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

400 with 2/5 seems you get the magic cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Thx all, like i said i was winning a bit. Guess the best was the experience to play live and the social component.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

he meant per 100 hands, and at commerce id say we get maybe 30-35/hr with the auto shuffler. However, I agree with you though that 3/6 at commerce is definately beatable. I recently quit playing online and have been hitting that up a lot, so far $17.82/hr but I only have 20 hours logged....I guess well see in the long run what really happens... I expect it to be around ~10-12$/hr. I think the 1/3 blinds also helps save a bit more than it would at a game using even numbers. The thing about Commerce is about 90% of the players are complete donks, and I think the extra 1 or 2 every hand who call for absolutely no reason make up for the high rake. The trouble we will have later on at Commerce is the 4/8 game, the biggest donkfest there, where the swings will be so huge...

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I think 1.5 BB per hour is sustainable at all Commerce games $3-6 up to $15-30. This assumes mostly weekend evening play, table selection of loose/passive or loose/aggressive tables. If you can handle the swings that is.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just pulled over $400 from a 2/5 spread game last night in 4hrs. So I don't think low limits are a waste of time. You just have to adjust your game to the situation. Also, here in colorado we have $5 max bets, so I don't have a choice to play at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well done! Next, come back after you've played 400 hours and let us know what your hourly rate is. I guarantee that unless you're an unbelievable player (or your cardroom's rake structure is unbelievably generous), your winrate will be a fairly small dollar amount in this game.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think 1.5 BB per hour is sustainable at all Commerce games $3-6 up to $15-30. This assumes mostly weekend evening play, table selection of loose/passive or loose/aggressive tables. If you can handle the swings that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the best reason of all to play a significant amount of low limit, to learn how to deal with the swings.

Even the higher limits will get donk-tastic at times.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Couple things I didn't see addressed that can make a difference:

1) Not all low limit B&M rooms have the $1 pulled for a jackpot. Try and find (s/b easy in Vegas) a room that doesn't do this. If you're playing for a 3 day run, odds of you catching an Aces full had beaten by quads probably won't be worth the $1 you lose from every pot you rake.

2) It's not a fair comparison when showing the B&M amount that's raked from pots over a period of time. The typical $3-6 or $4-8 player B&M is probably used to $.50-1 or $1-2 online. T

ypical rake is 10% or $4 max in Vegas, correct? Isn't the rake 10% from online. 10% of a larger pot is of course going to be more $$, but you will also (hopefully) be winning a larger pot. 10% is still 10%.

3) You do lose out on tips compared to online.

If you avoid the jackpot games, you're only losing out on tips in B&M and gaining (IMO):
A. game against MUCH worse players
B. bigger pots to win
C. social experience
D. free drinks (even water/soda/coffee/hot chocolate)

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

You are right. This is a one night experience and the pots were VERY juicy that night.

I have a slow down in my schedule over the next month and will be able to play every Fri and Sat nights. I will keep records, including gas and travel time. I live 1.5hrs from the casino so travel time will make a difference. On the other side I will count any jackpots or table shares I get. (I got a table share this year and the jackpots are high) The rake structure is up to $3 per pot and I have seen them take $2 for the jackpot if the pot is big.

I realize my win rate will be very low unless I win a jackpot or can keep up the play. The games are very loose so this will tell me how loose. I will make a post in two weeks.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are right. This is a one night experience and the pots were VERY juicy that night.

I have a slow down in my schedule over the next month and will be able to play every Fri and Sat nights. I will keep records, including gas and travel time. I live 1.5hrs from the casino so travel time will make a difference. On the other side I will count any jackpots or table shares I get. (I got a table share this year and the jackpots are high) The rake structure is up to $3 per pot and I have seen them take $2 for the jackpot if the pot is big.

I realize my win rate will be very low unless I win a jackpot or can keep up the play. The games are very loose so this will tell me how loose. I will make a post in two weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what Ill do this too. Ive taken about a month of from poker, and am going to start playing next week, I vowed to split my time 50/50 between bandm and online, so Ill keep a log book like you, I should hopefully be getting to the casinos 10-20 hours a week, along with 10-20 hours online. I think Ill start at 5/10 bandm though, because 3/6 is too low for my bankroll, but 20/40 is usually such a long wait, and unfortuently there arent any other games offered...ps my drive time is about 20-30 minutes 1 way.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I have heard numerous good players say that 5/6 BB/100 is a sustainable winrate at $0.50/1.00 online and I would tend to agree. (My 40K winrate was just over 6 BB/100 with the last 10K well over 8 BB/100). Now I hear people saying come back when you have 400 hours and tell me what it is... well 400 hours @ 30 hands per hour is only 12K hands. And at 30 hands/hour 2 BB/hr is about equal to 6 BB/100. Even with the extra $1 drop (which is only 1/4 of a BB), you are generally only winning 2-3 pots an hour So that is only costing you a few dollars an hour off your win rate with Tips/Jackpot.

In addition you have the much fishier game (even fishier than $0.50/1.00 at Party) and many of the games when the rake is capped at 3 or 4 dollars, the pots get up to 80-120 dollars easily. Most 3/6 games I have seen have 6-8 seeing the flop often for a raise, and 3-4 seeing the turn and river. So you are getting 80 dollar pots often, with very little of your money in them... so lots of profit.

Just winning one $80 pot with $20 of your money in is a $60 net, that will more than cover your blinds, tips, and rake for the hour.

So I would say that 3/6 (and to some extent 2/4) are definately beatable for 2 BB/hour over the long haul. Of course if you are that good, you can definately make more at 4/8 and 5/10 which have better rake structures and similiar bad players.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Agreed, the rake pretty much kills you at small tables. Spirit Mountain here takes $1 for the jackpot each hand. 10% rake capped at $3.

This means that most pots have $4 taken (3 in rake, 1 in jackpot). There's almost no way to overcome that sort of rake. Let's say you average 40 hands per hour. You win 10% of those hands, that's 4 hands. Each hand has $4 raked, which is $16, or 2.66BB. Just to keep even with the rake you'd have to win 5.33BB/100.

5.33BB/100. Yea, good luck with that.

When you get to 5/10+, due to the rake cap, it's not nearly as bad.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Low Limit can be a waste of time, but it can be a profitable timekiller if you are waiting for a higher limit. This was the case for me this weekend, played the 4-8 at Foxwoods, while waiting for an act 2 satellite, and came away with a $60 profit in 20 minutes.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Where do you play Scott? And congrats on the big score, especially for 2-5. Last time I hit the Colorado Central Station. I was there for 3 hours and profited $120. It was amazing what people chased. I'm here on the Western Slope, so I don't get there too much to see if I could average $40 and hour. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I am hesitant to say where I play because I fear I will end up at a table full of 2+2 players and the experiment will be a bust. Let me get through this weekend and I will post all info on Sunday. If you want to come the following weekend then you will know where to find me.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

While it's true that $3+1 rake structures are extremely tough on 3/6 and 4/8 games, causing a player to bust every 30 hands or so (we'll say 40 minutes), hopefully there are more in line behind them.

A winrate beating the rake is certainly possible, depending on just how bad the players are - something similar to what people have posted at Party .50/1.00, or even slightly better, should be possible (when adjusted for rake). However, YMMV.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Does your average 2+2er win 10% of pots? I would think that is extremely high... since you are only playing a very small portion of flops, and folding a large percentage of those when you miss the flop/draw. I would put us at winning an average of 6-7% of pots. This is for your normal 20/10 player with good aggression. So that means you only need to win around 4 BB/100 to beat the rake, and last I saw Party Poker BB/100 for $0.50/1.00 was about 3 BB/100 to beat the rake, so not much worse. (average rake around $0.50 per hand so winning at 6% of hands = rake paid of about 3.00 = 3 BB/100). B&M for a capped rake of $4/hand you win 6% of your 100 hands seen means $24 in rake = 4 BB/100. Take out the jackpot drop and you are down to 3 BB/100 and you can't assume every pot is capped in rake, average rake on winning hands is probably somewhere around 2 dollars per hand.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't remember the title of the thread but I held the same belief as you and we had a giant discussion here in the B&M forum about chip structure and its impact upon action.

I was wrong. Chip structure has a huge impact upon action. Overall and on the average a multiple chip structure game will be looser than a single chip structure. Now don't say "Well last thursday the 5-10 had eight family capped pots in a row!" because everything about poker is situational. Some days the single chip structure will be loose and the multiple chip games will be tight but overall, day in and day out there will be a significant difference in the action.

Don't just take my word for it, start watching on your own and you will see. Once you begin watching for it, it is very noticeable over period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you start watching for the opposite, you will find that is true as well. It's called confirmation bias. We see what we want to see.

Chesspain is more correct IMO. 2/5 blind structure outweighs # of chips as a factor for tightness of play.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does your average 2+2er win 10% of pots? I would think that is extremely high... since you are only playing a very small portion of flops, and folding a large percentage of those when you miss the flop/draw. I would put us at winning an average of 6-7% of pots. This is for your normal 20/10 player with good aggression. So that means you only need to win around 4 BB/100 to beat the rake, and last I saw Party Poker BB/100 for $0.50/1.00 was about 3 BB/100 to beat the rake, so not much worse. (average rake around $0.50 per hand so winning at 6% of hands = rake paid of about 3.00 = 3 BB/100). B&M for a capped rake of $4/hand you win 6% of your 100 hands seen means $24 in rake = 4 BB/100. Take out the jackpot drop and you are down to 3 BB/100 and you can't assume every pot is capped in rake, average rake on winning hands is probably somewhere around 2 dollars per hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I win 10% of pots, but I'm not your average 2+2er. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Also consider that a better player will find better opportunities to take down pots with rags uncontested.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does your average 2+2er win 10% of pots? I would think that is extremely high... since you are only playing a very small portion of flops, and folding a large percentage of those when you miss the flop/draw. I would put us at winning an average of 6-7% of pots. This is for your normal 20/10 player with good aggression. So that means you only need to win around 4 BB/100 to beat the rake, and last I saw Party Poker BB/100 for $0.50/1.00 was about 3 BB/100 to beat the rake, so not much worse. (average rake around $0.50 per hand so winning at 6% of hands = rake paid of about 3.00 = 3 BB/100). B&M for a capped rake of $4/hand you win 6% of your 100 hands seen means $24 in rake = 4 BB/100. Take out the jackpot drop and you are down to 3 BB/100 and you can't assume every pot is capped in rake, average rake on winning hands is probably somewhere around 2 dollars per hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I win 10% of pots, but I'm not your average 2+2er. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Also consider that a better player will find better opportunities to take down pots with rags uncontested.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but certainly here in Northern Claifornia it means you can do about twice in a blue moon rather than once. Certainly not often enough to boost your win-rate much. At a typical table I play at, there are maybe 2-3 players per table who I can be confident enough have noticed my TAG style and will react accordingly to make it +EV bluff a pot against.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Of course you can beat this game! You just need a rate of 0.4 JP/100 (jackpots per 100 hands)...duh!

Heh - in all honesty, I'm currently languishing in these limits too (3/6 and 4/8) and I think that they're definitely beatable for 4 or 5 BB/100, rake included. Seriously - even with the awful proportionate rake, I think that the errors here vs. online 1/2 more than compensate for the higher rake percentage. Especially if you have even halfway decent skill at building pots when you hit your premium hands. I've taken down 40 BB pots with flushes and boats when four to five people are staying until showdown - that NEVER happens online. I mean this is a game that people will cold call raises with ANY two suited cards. I mean, come on!

Now, here in CA, I've noticed that 2/4, 3/6, and 4/8 all take the same aggregate amount of rake (instead of proportional to the limit), so therefore the higher the limit you play the less significant the rake and the more beatable it is (the errors are no less common in 4/8 than they are at 2/4). That being said, in 2/4 you're dealing with a whole BB or more of rake - so I don't know that you can beat a game full of passive players. The most unbeatable game is the 1/2 stud game in most CA casinos - my god. Now THAT is a game in which nobody wins, for real.

And yes, the swings are tremendous at this level. I generally buy in for 20 BB ($120 at 3/6) and almost always either bust completely out or triple up in a two-three hour session - and that's with only a 20% or so VPIP.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Then all those silly casinos spreading $4-$8 or $6-$12, instead of $5-$10, must have rocks in their head!
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Chip structure far effects tightness of games rather than blinds. Fish like pushing large stacks around. If they are in for a buck, they are in.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Just see what happens when a casino changes it's chip denominations, and a 1-2 chip structure games becomes multiple chips. A formerly tight games all of a sudden becomes wing-ding loose, with the same blinds.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

thank cardcounter0, to the others BMA ( New acronym, Bias My Ass)you go from a bunch of tight ass NITS chopping blinds to family pots or six to eight for two bets and buckle up it is going to be a wild ride.

You need to remember that I am one of the most stuborn assholes on the planet and the only way, I will even consider the possibilty that I might be slightly mistaken is to have absolute proof in triplicate that I am incorrect.

If you ever hear me say that I was wrong, you can guaran-F'in-tee it that I have triple checked the facts and the other person is correct before I will ever admit to being wrong.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

I always thought that casinos spread 4/8 and 6/12 to keep white chips on the table for dealer tips.

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Wow

Re: Is B&M low limit waste of time?
 

Haven't played much low-limit poker in vegas have you? I played an 8 hour session of 3/6 at the MGM and I saw a pot folded without a showdown 5 times. If you are playing standard 20/10 poker, you are only seeing 3 flops in 10 at most... and you are not winning 1/3 of those against 5-6 callers. Now when you DO win the pots are nice.. but 10% is not realistic unless you are playing something like 60-70% of hands. (and then your winrate is crap because you are putting money in with the worst of it to often)