7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

All,

Comments on all streets welcome - permission to be brutal. I made a big mess of this hand. Results to come.

7 Card Stud ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

5th Street - (4.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls

6th Street - (13.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___folds

River - (20.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (22.85 BB)

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

disregard my post. I totally misread the action in this hand. God I am going to get owned tonight I can't even see straight [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

I play it the same against an unknown.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

I like the 4th st final call instead of re-raising. This way, seat 2 will bet into you on 5th & you can get of seat 1. It's dangerous to keep him in with the A, even if it's a little dead. 5th: Opps. Didn't work out. Seat 1 calls 2 BB's cold, knowing yhat you could easily have K's up. Then, seat 2, seeing the show of strength by both other players,still likes his hand. Bad news. 6th: I would check, based on the 5th st analysis. Good final fold.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

you put in way too much action with a dead hand against two very promising hands.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

How would you play this hand Ray? I see no other way to play it.

Of course seat 2 might well be a favourite on 5th, but he could easily have only a flush draw or an under pair. And how does the other hand look promising? Semi-dead deuces with an ace kicker with one ace gone? Maybe with a gutshot? An under pair? I want all those hands to fold, but they usually won’t fold for one bet on 5th; they just might fold for two bets though.
On 5th, hero could be badly beaten, but seat 2 could be 3-betting for value/ as a semi-bluff with some flush + straight draw combo. I think you have to call.

Granted, 6th should be a check. After seat 1 call two cold on 5th it does look like he’s just made aces up and is scared of a straight.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

I don't think that the benefits of getting rid of seat one are worth the extra investment on fifth street. Getting two and possibly three big bets in with a semi-dead pair of kings is close to spewing chips. Check/call here and check/fold sixth as the hand turns out seems to me to be better.

Results
 

Thanks for the responses. I wasn't able to post this weekend so couldn't post results until now. I'm still unsure about my 5th street play, Seat 2 is an aggressive player and I was looking to isolate. Feedback has been that maybe my holding was too dead to make this play compared to other's boards. The bet on 6th was definitely BAD (I thought this was my worst mistake). It's driving no-one out and I don't think I can bet this for value here even if I'm a little ahead. I just didn't think Seat 1 would give a free card here if he wasn't drawing.

Results:
Main Pot: $225.50 | Rake: $3

Seat 1: [ 5s 4d 2s Ad 3d 2h Ah ] [ a straight, ace to five -- Ad,5s,4d,3d,2s ]

Seat 2: [ 9s 3s Js Ts Kc 6d As ] [ a flush, ace high -- As,Js,Ts,9s,3s ]

- MAC

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 2 is an aggressive player

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it’s safe to call him a maniac.

Anyway, it’s ashamed nobody else responded. Pretty interesting hand imo.

I still like the 5th street raise, but that doesn’t mean it’s correct. I guess it depends mainly on the 1 seats hand range. If this was me in seat 1, raising won’t do you much good obviously, but most players are much to loose from the bring-in in my experience.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

I would just go ahead and 3-bet on 4th street. If the third player were not the bring-in, it's probably best to wait until fifth to isolate, but since he probably has a weaker hand than if he limped in on 3rd, he will likely fold 4th for two more small bets. (Note: if the bring-in were a good player, I'd be more hesistant because a likely holding was (A2)2, but even this is unlikely given the dead ace.)

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

this is a classic reverse implied odds scenario. On fourth, the c/r is a move he may make with a flush draw, two pair or trips. I won't fold my kings here and I doubt most would. But he's told you he's strong, so reraising doesn't make alot of sense. On fifth, forget knocking out unless the bettor is a maniac. He's told you he has a strong hand -- you may be behind or only slightly ahead and your prospects for improvement are most likely only to two pair. So you call. The pot is giving you plenty of overlay. Sixth, ditto.
And call the river with two pair. Note that you were probably winning until then, but there's no way of knowing. In stud, muchmore than in hold'em, calling can be correct. That's because independence of hands can mean you're more frequently a slight favorite or slight dog, as opposed to hold'em, where you are more often either drawing to five or less outs or have your opponent drawing to five or less outs.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is a classic reverse implied odds scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain why?

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would just go ahead and 3-bet on 4th street. If the third player were not the bring-in, it's probably best to wait until fifth to isolate, but since he probably has a weaker hand than if he limped in on 3rd, he will likely fold 4th for two more small bets. (Note: if the bring-in were a good player, I'd be more hesistant because a likely holding was (A2)2, but even this is unlikely given the dead ace.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with 3 betting 3rd to try to get him out right there. It looks from the action that you could have taken a free card on 6th. That would have been wise, as it looks like you are at least against aces up and a strong draw. You have some outs to fill but I don't think your bet on 6th has much value at this point and it certainly won't get a fold from anyone if they are still drawing with the pot that big.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

Not to be results oriented, but is waiting for 5th a much better move, than reraising 4th? I don't see much difference, b/c Seat 1 will be facing pretty bad odds on both streets. So why not try knocking him out one card earlier?

I usually play micro, so I can understand waiting for 5th at very small limits, but at 5/10 I'm guessing there's a good chance that a 4th St reraise will knock out a lot of players. Maybe I'm wrong?

Edit: lol, Is the Chris Ferguson in your pic?

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

On the whole waiting for 5th vs. 3-betting 4th discussion:

I like waiting here much better, because:

a) You force the 1 seat to call $20 cold instead of $10
b) On 4th, seat 1 has already put $$$ into the pot; I’ve found that people get kinda stubborn there
c) I’d be willing to fold 5th if seat 2 catches another spade; obviously, I want the pot to be as small as possible when that happens
d) If seat 2 has a 4-flush, he will have something like 50% equity, and the kings should have significantly less than 33%. 3-betting gives seat 2 the chance to cap it, and that’s clearly bad.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

When you catch a brick on fifth and one of your kings falls elsewhere, giving the opponent who raised you on fourth a high str8 board, your chances of winning the pot are probably going down faster than new money is going in.

However, the money that's already in there from 3rd and 4th gives you an overlay, so you play on knowing you'll probably need to improve against most of his possible hands, and are drawing almost dead against trips. Since you're likely losing money on new bets, you'd need a really compelling scenario to k/o the other guy. And what hand will fold that you really want to fold here? Meanwhile, if the other guy does have a monster like trip jacks or aces up he is likely to three bet.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

[ QUOTE ]
And what hand will fold that you really want to fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]


242A3
252A3
262A3
272A3
282A3
292A3
2T2A3
2J2A3
2Q2A3

442A3
552A3
662A3
772A3
882A3
992A3
TT2A3
JJ2A3
QQ2A3

342A3
352A3
3sXs2sA3 (8X)

And maybe some other crazy stuff I can’t think of now…

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the Chris Ferguson in your pic?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's Jesus grinding with Annie Duke posted some time back. There's definitely something funny about it.

Re: 7 Card Stud High $5/10 - losing control
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is the Chris Ferguson in your pic?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's Jesus grinding with Annie Duke posted some time back. There's definitely something funny about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that she is smelling her hairy armpit perhaps?