$16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

You've pushed 4 hands prior to this (#40 in the tourney), and shown 2. Big blind has been pretty weak/tight. Hasn't played many hands, but overbet the nuts a couple of times and been paid off. Blinds are going up to 100/200 a25 in less than one minute.

What do you do here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter

Hero (t1510)
BB (t4345)
UTG (t1960)
Button (t5685)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds, Hero?</font>.

Final Pot: t300

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I push this

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

No way, I fold. Nevermind. Yea, fold.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Eeeew. I'd push AT+, 77+ here but I think you've got too many chips for this to be a good push with any two. Also, the BB has enough chips where he can call you with a few more hands than any two wants to see.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

4 hands in a row or 4 hands total?

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I say fold. You don't need to push every hand.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4 hands in a row or 4 hands total?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. 4 total, all within the last 3 orbits or so (it was 6-handed then).

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I can't push this. It will sweeten the BB for the next orbit anyway. Push then (with anything better than 62o, if it's folded to you)

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Anyone with SNGPT care to put this through against a default "tight" range?

[Eastbay, I swear I'm buying the program this weekend, as soon as my RB cashout clears... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]]

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

7.5bbs in the sb is not a push any2

it's a push a wide range situation, but not any2

especially into such a large stack

somewhere in the 4-5bb range is where it moves to any2

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I hold out for something better.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Sure I'll run it through SNGPT.

Okay, I'm shocked. Against my Average range of 66+,ATs+,AJo+,KQs pushing 62o here with your stack is +1.2%, which is a huge clear push. My Tight range of 99+,AJs+,AQo it's 1.6%. Pushing here is only really bad if he calls you with 22+,A5s+,A7o+,KJs+, KJo+, and at +.3% it can't be called terrible.

Anyone understand why this is? I'm normally not so wrong on push/folds though this structure isn't one that i'm completely comfortable with.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I too need to buy SNGPT (very very soon, I promise).

Can you re-run it with other shortie at even stack to Hero's? I bet it's closer to even that way.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

by default, run sngpt on 'maniac' range...many in 11s/22s/16s/27s will call with an even wider range than maniac, but they definitely call with maniac

the model i've found from that is that u push any2 from sb if u have 4.5bbs or less...however, this one could be slightly +ev from sngpt on maniac because when u do the "calculate all" button, it only shows u hands that are +.5% ev or higher

so really, my 4.5bbs from sb means that any 2 is +.5% ev, which is good enough...anything from 0-.4 is iffy cause all the variables aren't calculated and u can't pinpoint villian's calling range accurate enough to put 100% faith in the answer...so .5% is a good point for being 'pretty sure'

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

While I wasn't a believer at first, I think I'm coming around.

Someone's been reading this thread:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter

Button (t1465)
SB (t3223)
Hero (t3914)
UTG (t2898)
MP (t2000)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1465</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t1265.

Button held 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (what a fish!) and my hand help up.

A bit later in the evening:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (3 handed) converter

BB (t5530)
Button (t5335)
Hero (t2635)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2635</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

So, I guess it works both ways.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I push this everyday and twice on Sundays.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

You're still short stack if you steal the blinds. So what do you think getting the blinds here is going to accomplish?

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're still short stack if you steal the blinds. So what do you think getting the blinds here is going to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many things:

Keeps you from getting blinded out faster.

Increases your stack size by a large amount.

Most importantly, it increases your FE in later hands, allowing you to continue to push, pick up blinds, stay alive and eventually win the tournament.

This is a clear push and SNGPT agrees.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

It's basically always right to push any 2 SB vs. BB if you have 13 or less BB. There was an article on it... Which I've failed to bookmark at work.

However, this doesn't take into account the fact that you're going to find better spots, and that the more you push the lower your fold equity for future pushes. In short, you have to pass sometimes otherwise your table image is shot, and you can make more from that image than from this kind of push.

If the BB were me, and you did this more than once or twice, I'd be calling with any 2 with that kind of stack.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

To be fair, two hands is hardly a statistical sample.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Oh, and incidentally, I'm pushing in this situation most of the time.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Calling with any two?

That is -EV.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB were me, and you did this more than once or twice, I'd be calling with any 2 with that kind of stack.

[/ QUOTE ]Can that be right?

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair, two hands is hardly a statistical sample.

[/ QUOTE ]I know anything can happen on one hand, but come on, you gotta believe a two hand sample.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

This has gotta be where I'm going wrong...

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

If he's pushing with any 2 with &lt; 13 BB, it's neutral EV.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he's pushing with any 2 with &lt; 13 BB, it's neutral EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't make that assumption 100 % of the time though.

If I have pushed 3-4 times in a row (note in the OP he said he pushed 4 times in the whole TOURNY, not in a row), I might tighten up a little bit (if I have the stack for it).

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Yeh, I agree - but that's why I won't push any two, because it means you'll be called more in the future. I'd rather pick a better spot some of the time. I just want to be clear that I don't think this is one of those times though, I'm going to be going all-in here.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

i fold this. i'm probably pushing about 50% of my hands here. if the blinds were 200/400 i'm pushing this

edit: i just noticed it's the first level of 100/200. i'm definitely waiting for a better hand

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're still short stack if you steal the blinds. So what do you think getting the blinds here is going to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many things:

Keeps you from getting blinded out faster.

Increases your stack size by a large amount.

Most importantly, it increases your FE in later hands, allowing you to continue to push, pick up blinds, stay alive and eventually win the tournament.

This is a clear push and SNGPT agrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) Even stars turbo blinds go up way slower than on party - this is really a non issue.

B) 300 chips here isn't a large amount. Those chips do nothing for you. You're still the short stack. And you're risking your tournament life with a hand that will be 30:70 if called.

C) How does pushing after you've already pushed quite a few times increase your FE? Did you notice some players have 3x as many chips as you and you've been pushing a lot lately?

D) SNGPT doesn't play the stars turbos - I do.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's basically always right to push any 2 SB vs. BB if you have 13 or less BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to true.

Here's an example.

Blinds 50/100
stacks
BB 7700
SB 1300
button 500
co 500

Folded to you in SB with 32o, BB will call with 22+, A2s+, A3o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs+

PUSHING IS -3.2%.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's basically always right to push any 2 SB vs. BB if you have 13 or less BB. There was an article on it... Which I've failed to bookmark at work.


[/ QUOTE ]

That article is full of crap.

eastbay

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

My first comment is that it would be nice if people were a little more cautious about claiming "what SNGPT says." SNGPT does not "say this is a push."

What it does say is that if you make certain calling assumptions, the EV difference is some figure. There's a difference, especially when you don't qualify with all the critical information about what you're assuming about your opponents' play.

This is how I'd look at this hand.

OP made the important observation that he'd pushed 4 times in a row coming into this. That's big. That's important. The table is looking for a spite call at this point, and even conservatively speaking I think a range for BB in this situation might be any pair, any ace, KT+, maybe even QJs: a good quarter of his hands. You don't threaten BB's tournament life here, and if he busts you, he not only gets an edge on the table, he gets to type something like "justice, idiot" in the chat box, making him feel real smug and warm inside.

In that case this is a losing push by SNGPT analysis.

We're not totally dead in the water if we let this one go by.

Let's turn this around and look at it from BB's perspective for a moment, and assume he is an ICM expert - then we'll return to reality after that. Let's say he suspects you're pushing any two cards here. It's correct for him to call with 45% of his hands, all the way down to junk like T9o.

Now, he's probably not that ICM savvy, nor is he sure you're really pushing any two. So let's say he actually makes an assumption that you're pushing top 50% of hands. That leads us back to his correct calling range being:

44+,A5o+,A2s+,KTo+,K9s+,QJs

for 21% of hands, which is pretty darn close to our original assumption. I think it's ballpark good enough for examining this hand, and I think this push is borderline at best.

If your image was tight coming into this, go for it. But it isn't, so pusher beware.

eastbay

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Let me make this simple:
It is correct to push any 2 if your opponent has a reasonably tight range/will lay down quite a few hands.
However, if your opponent puts you on any 2 here and adjusts accordingly, you can't push here because your opponent will correctly call with junk like QTo.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP made the important observation that he'd pushed 4 times in a row coming into this.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm pretty sure what he meant is that he's pushed four times total (out of 40 hands). Not that he has pushed the last four hands.

SNGPT
 

When I put this into the sng power tools, it said to push with any two, EXCEPT if BB was a maniac which you said is not true. But, I am new with sngpt so I may have messed up and typed something wrong in there [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: SNGPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I put this into the sng power tools, it said to push with any two, EXCEPT if BB was a maniac which you said is not true. But, I am new with sngpt so I may have messed up and typed something wrong in there [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The button labels of tight, average, loose, maniac are really just mnemonics and the default ranges are just that - defaults. It's really just like radio buttons on your car radio - you should set them to something you like and that is appropriate for you and the games you play in.

You need to think really think about what the actual range is likely to actually be, not whether "the guy is a maniac" or something like that.

eastbay

Re: SNGPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's really just like radio buttons on your car radio - you should set them to something you like and that is appropriate for you and the games you play in.

You need to think really think about what the actual range is likely to actually be, not whether "the guy is a maniac" or something like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, with my initial playing around with SNGPT, what I have really learned is that I need to be able to better define calling ranges. I think the players in the games I play in (PS $15+1 turbos for the most part) are typically somewhere between the loose and maniac defaults. (Yes, it varies a lot from player to player.)

Quite a few of the pushes that looked a bit odd to me weren't pushes anymore when I loosened up caller's range just a bit. (Still, I don't push often enough in some situations.)

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

Why wouldn't you wait until the next hand to make a move? You've got to get something better than 62 and you'd have better position.

Re: $16: push ANY two from the SB?
 

I am guessing the article you guys were referring to is this one. He seems to make a convincing case but having run this particular example through my ICM and pokerstove (don't have anything fancier) I am no longer sure of its truth web page