Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

This is Part Four of our second "Play a Hand with the Masters". If you haven't already contributed to Part One, Part Two, and Part Three you should do so first.

Setup
$100+9 Party Poker MTT
Blinds 50/100
Hero is Gigabet
No strong read on villain

Stacks

Hero: t2670
Villain: 2915

Pre-Flop
Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds. Hero raises to t275. All fold to the BB who calls.

Flop
Pot: t600

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks. Hero bets t300. BB raises to t600. Hero calls t300.

Turn
Pot: t1800

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets t800. Action is on the hero.

Range of hands for the villain? What do you make of the villain's bet? Do you fold, call, or raise? If you raise, to what amount? If you just call, what's your plan on the river based upon the card and the villain's action?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

I would go allin of course, we only have like 900 behind after the 800 chip bet.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would go allin of course, we only have like 900 behind after the 800 chip bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the hero has t995 behind if he calls the t800 bet.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

900-995 there isnt really much of a difference. Note I wrote 700 for like 5 seconds before editing it, you might think you are responding to that.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]

900-995 there isnt really much of a difference. Note I wrote 700 for like 5 seconds before editing it, you might think you are responding to that.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Since i can't imagine that he'd fold here... i'm pushing.

a rough guess of a range he'd have would be ATo+, ATs+, KJs+, KJo+, TT,JJ,KK,AA,

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

I don't mean to stick in a one word reply here, but there's no new information here that changes the point of view I had on the flop, so going over the villain's range and justification therefore again would just be wasting space.

Therefore, short and sweet: I Push.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

With our call on turn, he thinks he is value betting AJ. I raise all in.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

It seems like we have the same issue as with the flop. The turn is a blank. Does he have a weak(er) ace, something like AJ, AQ or Ax. QT seems stupid. AA or KK seem less likely because we have AK and there is an A and K on the board. JJ is the only thing that worries me. If this guy has JJ, so be it. I'm pushing all-in.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

go ahead and push now. He's getting 3500:900 or just under 4:1. If he can fold now, god bless him. If he's beating us, then c'mon A/K.

The only other option that i see is risking letting him draw again to his 2 or 4 outer and see the river. I'm just not sure that he fires his last 900 when we would be getting such an attractive price.

so, push.

Kinda blah hand, IMO.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

That's two words...

Sorry. Yeah, I agree, I push here. From the flop discussion, our hand is big enough that if our opponent is lucky enough to have AA, KK, JJ, or QT (or 99, but... no) then that's poker.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

"Kind of a Blah hand"

Agreed, I thought we were definately turning a 10,J or Q

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Kind of a Blah hand"


[/ QUOTE ]

PULL THE TRIGGER!!! or shoot to thrill. Your choice.

Seriously though, is there another reasonable option? Not like he can get away from his hand here. Once the rat is in the cage, there is no point throwing rocks at him. He's already caught. And hell, if we are the ones who are caught, there is no gettting out now.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

This hand is really boring. Is the interesting part the diff between calling the minraise and pushing? I dont get it.

Hero obviously can not fold here. Hero obviously pushes because opponent will call it off with many type of pair/draw type hands that he might fold on the river... as well as many other hands that are made and worse and might fold to a scare card like an ace due to counterfitting problems or whatever.

Perscribe this hand to insomniacs it will put them to bed.

-Jason

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
what a boring hand...
I dont even feel the need to respond about what ill do cause its so obvious.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

All-in don't know why this hand is supposed to be interesting.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

i'm curious how theres a deccision on the river.

[deleted]
 

ignore.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

I would push, but I bet gigabet called.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Ok, only thing I can think is this. We are either way ahead or way behind. Villian has between 0-6 outs. We don't want him to fold. So, we turn passive and simply let him bet into us as much as he wants until the river at which point the rest of the money is going in. If hero bets here, villian will be able to put hero on a very tight range and will actually be able to fold some hands we don't want him to fold. The problem is, most of villian's hands have a Q or a T in them. He's not getting away from these hands on the turn, but he MIGHT get away on the river. Shoot I don't know. This is just an unthinking push to me.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Meh. OK, now you push, end of hand.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

I push, but why do I have a feeling that gigabet folded here?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Lloyd, don't worry, almost no hands are boring. I mean half the field said to call preflop, and then you had a smattering of people talking about all kinds of weird things on the flop. Okay the turn is pretty clearcut IMO, but if it was so "boring" as a lot of people are claiming, there wouldnt have been 13 pages of freaking responses for the first 3 threads.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

the PF was semi-not boring.

flop and turn was pretty dull.


But i have faith in Lloyd, theres some kind of twist in this.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Well I would have played the flop differently, as I suspect that many others would have as well. Whenever there are multiple ways to play a hand, or there is at least an alternate play that someone who is a strong pro player decides to make, then I just don't see how everyone can dismiss it as "boring".

I mean I would have bet more than 300 to begin with, and wouldn't have flat called the flop raise (I would have moved allin). For some people certain parts of this hand will be boring, some won't be. Not everyone here is on the same exact level and has the same playing style.

It just seems stupid to me to criticize the choice of hand when there has been so many responses to it. Obviously those respondents had something to say about it.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]

Lloyd, don't worry, almost no hands are boring. I mean half the field said to call preflop, and then you had a smattering of people talking about all kinds of weird things on the flop. Okay the turn is pretty clearcut IMO, but if it was so "boring" as a lot of people are claiming, there wouldnt have been 13 pages of freaking responses for the first 3 threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this hand is more interesting than most posted on this forum (lately that isn't exactly high praise), but to be considered a "masters hand" I think there should be more to it. The only real difference in opinion is what to do vs the flop min-raise, and in most cases I dont think it matters much what you do vs it if you're looking to get all your chips in the middle here because a normal $100 PP player isn't folding AT let alone AQ or KJ. The only interesting idea I could see here is folding to the continued aggression on the turn, but w/o a strong read folding here in such a shallow stack tournament isn't a strong play in my opinoin.

Edit: By the way, I really do appreciate these hands and the work that Lloyd and our "masters" put in, and am excited for the prospect of more hands to come.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

the previous masters hand was way more interesting... there was an extra guy in the hand, nad more decisions to be made.

This just seems pretty straightforward.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

How greedy are we?


If Hero PUSHes now (after smooth calling the flop reraise) we send the signal that we were trapping and that our hand is very strong.
This will enable Villain to get away from (Ax), Kx, Qx, Jx, Tx and a pure bluff.
Probably Villain will call a push with Ax, any combination of a pair/draw and anything better than this of course.


If Hero CALLs the turn bet Villain might think Hero is the one with the draw. If this is so, the rest of Villains chips will likely go in the middle on the river. I suspect him to push a (brick) river even with 32o and call a push with Kx.


The above argues in favor of a call. However, as many have pointed out, stacks are shallow. Inducing a river bluff (or a river check-call with Kx and maybe Ax) has its merits but for 965 chips it might not be worth it considering the times villain hits a straight/set and stacks us.

I toss a coin.



(By the way, I agree with Curtains and others that the critique is stupid. If you don't like the hand, don't participate. Thanks again to Lloyd for setting this whole thing up.)

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
the previous masters hand was way more interesting... there was an extra guy in the hand, nad more decisions to be made.

This just seems pretty straightforward.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like straightforward hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And again, the way I would play the hand is completely different than Gigabet actually played it. So either I play this hand badly, he plays it badly, or it isn't so straightforward.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Well yeah I just think its ridiculous that Lloyd is doing all this work for free (at least I think its free), and tons of people are acting like they own the server and sound upset because the hand is "boring". If these people want a better hand why dont they post one in the same format themselves and stop complaining about it.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I really do appreciate these hands and the work that Lloyd and our "masters" put in, and am excited for the prospect of more hands to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said Pat.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Well I'm pushing here I see a pot that is bigger than my stack and top two pair in my hand, I'm putting it in. I don't see many holdings he can fold.

Same range as before AK, AQ, AJ, A10, KQ, KJ, K10, Q10

I can see an argument for a chip extraction call here. I think it is weaker than the chip extraction call on the flop re-raise. Obviously, the flop call worked because we got a turn leadout. If we call here he might just throw in the rest of his chips on the river in a vague bluff attempt hoping we missed some sort of draw.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Auto push

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Villian has T-Q or JJ or KK or AA or AJ. Villian wants a call. Hero is behind and should fold.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

It looks like the villain is trying to get paid with a big hand. Villain knows that hero is strong with an early PF raise. Even if villain held AJ or KJ he knows he could be up against AK alot of the time. Trips may be a less likely holding for hero who would surely have pushed the flop given the texture of it.

Also the turn bet of 800 seems too small to be an attempt to take the pot. I think its likely the villian could have QT or JJ and knows he could be up against 2 pair and is trying to win as much as possible.

Therefore i fold the AK.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

i have read the previous parts but havent posted a response.

for all those that said push i am confused. obviously we dont have a problem with all the money going into the pot but why do it all on the turn? granted, if the villain bets the rest of hero's chips on the river, i will call no matter what card falls. but what if the villain checks the river? i would be happy to check behind. sure having 900 left if i lose sucks but i dont think theres a ton of value in just shoving the turn. im not a frequent MTTer but the Hw/the masters posts are cool and id like to learn more. please tell me why pushing the turn is better if you disagree as id like to know if my thought process is wrong.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]

Range of hands for the villain? What do you make of the villain's bet? Do you fold, call, or raise? If you raise, to what amount? If you just call, what's your plan on the river based upon the card and the villain's action?

[/ QUOTE ]

My range hasn't changed from the last update. There's a 75% chance I'm ahead here based on the hand ranges. He may be ahead w/JJ or QT and be betting for value or he may have caught a piece of the flop and think he's ahead. No need to raise since his chips are going in. (rope a dope strategy) Here I call. Can't fold top two pair at this point. Chips look like they're going to find their way into the pot by the river.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villian has T-Q or JJ or KK or AA or AJ. Villian wants a call. Hero is behind and should fold.


[/ QUOTE ] That's a pretty tight range for no read.



[ QUOTE ]
It looks like the villain is trying to get paid with a big hand. Villain knows that hero is strong with an early PF raise. Even if villain held AJ or KJ he knows he could be up against AK alot of the time. Trips may be a less likely holding for hero who would surely have pushed the flop given the texture of it.

Also the turn bet of 800 seems too small to be an attempt to take the pot. I think its likely the villian could have QT or JJ and knows he could be up against 2 pair and is trying to win as much as possible.

Therefore i fold the AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you can't give "big hand" credit to a preflop raise in a 109 or you'll just fold away to the end.

Second, you put JJ into the range of the villain. If you were the villain would you a) just call preflop with JJ? b) Then on a straighting board with two overcards do you check/ min raise bottom set on the flop?

Can an 800 raise just be that villain feels like he has to try and take a shot at this turn, because he has two pair or top pair with a straight draw, but doesn't want to commit himself?

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

I dont play the 109's so i cant comment but i wasnt saying you need to give credit for all Pre Flop raises. I was saying as the PF raise was from early position then it is more likely to be a big hand IMO

With JJ i think i would just call from the SB and see the flop. I dont neccesarily want to play a big pot out of position with JJ against an early position PF raise. Would rather see what comes on the flop. Different if you have position on the raiser.
I agree with your point about the play of JJ on the turn i would raise it more.

Does the 800 bet not commit the villain anyway? is he going to lay down 2 pair if hero re raises getting 4 to 1 on his money in a big pot?

I think the villain is strong and in this case i would fold the hand and wait for a better spot.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn
 

Push...

http://www.net-express.com/photography/Push%201.jpg