Props and check-raising
 

I was dealing in a 4-8 game the other day with 2 props. One of the props check-raised the flop and led out to the river with a set against a "nitty" player. Aftr the hand was over the nit player absolutly LIT into the prop for check-raising and told him he'd never tip him again when he dealt. The prop replied that he was only playing his hand and it was nothing personal. The prop literarly had to get up and walk from the table to avoid confrontation from the player. Now my view is the room needs props. Props help the players and the room start games and hold short games together. It's hard enough to get good props to play knowing they're giving up a "X" amount of money they could make dealing. Taking away the ability to check-raise from a prop is like taking away the pass rush in football. It's hard enough to beat a low limit game like 4-8. Check-raise is PART OF THE GAME. The nit player that got mad in my opinion was way out of line by getting upset with the prop. I personaly would never support a rule not allowing a prop to check-raise.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

Of course the nit is out of line. The person that would get fired up about this kind of crap is probably the same guy who wouldn't tip in the first place. Some people are dicks, in poker as well as other aspects of their life.

Swede

Re: Props and check-raising
 

A prop is a prop, and a dealer is a dealer.
A dealer who is playing while on the clock could be viewed as a prop, but most players would view him as a dealer.
Most players understand that a prop is just trying to make a living and should play however he thinks will bring him the most profit.
But when they see a dealer playing, they see someone who depends upon tips from players such as themselves for their living. Even though they know check-raising is part of the game, they feel that coming from someone who scowls at them when they forget to toss a $1 tip, it is a poor public relations move.
I know dealers who refuse to play in their own club for that reason.
You emphasized the fact that this was a "prop" in your post, while I think the guy's objection was that it was a dealer.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
A prop is a prop, and a dealer is a dealer.
A dealer who is playing while on the clock could be viewed as a prop, but most players would view him as a dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. If you are in Mississippi they call a dealer playing on the clock a "prop" and this isn't really the case.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

IThe NIT is way out of line. The guy is playing poker. There is a dealer that I refuse to tip based on how he acted while playing. Not based on his play but based on the fact he acted like a complete ass and made the game less enjoyable.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

Was there ever a question that a prop wouldn't/shouldn't be allowed to checkraise? That doesn't seem to be the case, just that a grumpy old fart didn't like that it happened. Also consider that you witnessed an isolated incident. There could've been plenty of history between the two, and this one incident just caused things to boil over.

And FWIW, I'd be happy if a room had a rule that props can't check-raise. First, I'm sure that won't affect the availability of props. Second, I'd never have to fear a checkraise from that player. I wouldn't lobby for such a rule to be in place, but if it was, I'd take advantage of it.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't lobby for such a rule to be in place, but if it was, I'd take advantage of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You just made my point on why there should never be a no check-raising rule for props. In many situations it puts a prop in a position to be taken advantage of.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

My room has a rule (in the employee handbook not the house rules) that props may not check-raise. Of course its kind of irrelevant because as long as I have been here we have not had props.

It has always been my understanding that many rooms have this rule. Because even though you and I view Check-Raising as a part of the game, there are many people who view it as a dirty trick.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

I'd have no problem with a rule against shills check-raising, but props should have the same rules as anybody else.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

bah...while we're at it maybe they should only be able to look at one card. Sounds pretty dumb to me. If you can't deal with being check raised, take your chips to the cashier and have a great day because poker isn't a game for you. just my opinion on it.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
And FWIW, I'd be happy if a room had a rule that props can't check-raise. First, I'm sure that won't affect the availability of props. Second, I'd never have to fear a checkraise from that player. I wouldn't lobby for such a rule to be in place, but if it was, I'd take advantage of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would also be more likely that the props would not be as good, because a good prop would want to work elsewhere, in a room where they could keep their edge. (It's also possible that there might be other edge-reducing rules in a room that forbade c/r.)

So even better.

As for the nit, some people do see the c/r as a "mean" play. (IME, those people tend to be bad, yet overly serious, players.)

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have no problem with a rule against shills check-raising,

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was always my understanding that most places that used Shills -- Shills could not bet or raise at all, they would post blinds, ante's, bring-ins and fold to any bet.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

The nit was out of line. Nobody should ever be upset with how anybody else plays their cards. What if the propr had check-rasied him with a losing hand, would he have been upset then?

That said, sometimes, as a prop, or even as a regular player, you have to consider the big picture. There are some players I will never check-raise head-up because there are things that are more important than the extra few dollars I would win on that hand.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have no problem with a rule against shills check-raising,

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was always my understanding that most places that used Shills -- Shills could not bet or raise at all, they would post blinds, ante's, bring-ins and fold to any bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is accurate. In my time in this business I know fo exactly one shill being used in a poker game in a casino, I used it and then had to explain exactly what a shill as and why I signed a paid out slip to give them chips.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

Excuse my ignorance, but do "major" casinos regularly have dealers who are also playing in the game they deal?

No one finds this a little wierd? I mean personally I wouldn't care, but I can't imagine Joe public thinking this is normal. Nor can I imagine card rooms wanting their dealers playing at the same time.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
Excuse my ignorance, but do "major" casinos regularly have dealers who are also playing in the game they deal?

No one finds this a little wierd? I mean personally I wouldn't care, but I can't imagine Joe public thinking this is normal. Nor can I imagine card rooms wanting their dealers playing at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some notable exceptions but most poker rooms allow and encourage their dealers to play.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Excuse my ignorance, but do "major" casinos regularly have dealers who are also playing in the game they deal?

No one finds this a little wierd? I mean personally I wouldn't care, but I can't imagine Joe public thinking this is normal. Nor can I imagine card rooms wanting their dealers playing at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some notable exceptions but most poker rooms allow and encourage their dealers to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go ahead here and ask the obvious question of why.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Excuse my ignorance, but do "major" casinos regularly have dealers who are also playing in the game they deal?

No one finds this a little wierd? I mean personally I wouldn't care, but I can't imagine Joe public thinking this is normal. Nor can I imagine card rooms wanting their dealers playing at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some notable exceptions but most poker rooms allow and encourage their dealers to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go ahead here and ask the obvious question of why.

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You are in a business of offering poker games. Poker is unique in that it takes multiple guests to play (you dont' ahve to someoen to play blackjack against you just place your bets). There are people in these poker rooms that would like to play poker, and the poekr room would like for them to play; makes sense to seat them in the game.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
Excuse my ignorance, but do "major" casinos regularly have dealers who are also playing in the game they deal?

No one finds this a little wierd? I mean personally I wouldn't care, but I can't imagine Joe public thinking this is normal. Nor can I imagine card rooms wanting their dealers playing at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is ignorance, but that just means you havent been around the business much. No offense. MOST real cardrooms allow dealers to play. It's not wierd. It's been a part of the business for many many years. Normally they must conduct themselves in a proper manner, but checkraiseing should not be taken from thier options on playing a hand.

BTW Chipr....the shoe does not have "props" by the true definition of the word. I would just call them dealers playing in a game. And screw the nit.

BTW...as a floor you may want to pull him asside (the nit) and speak to him about this....maybe he'll back off, but who knows.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Excuse my ignorance, but do "major" casinos regularly have dealers who are also playing in the game they deal?

No one finds this a little wierd? I mean personally I wouldn't care, but I can't imagine Joe public thinking this is normal. Nor can I imagine card rooms wanting their dealers playing at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is ignorance, but that just means you havent been around the business much. No offense. MOST real cardrooms allow dealers to play. It's not wierd. It's been a part of the business for many many years. Normally they must conduct themselves in a proper manner, but checkraiseing should not be taken from thier options on playing a hand.

BTW Chipr....the shoe does not have "props" by the true definition of the word. I would just call them dealers playing in a game. And screw the nit.

BTW...as a floor you may want to pull him asside (the nit) and speak to him about this....maybe he'll back off, but who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already stated I'm ignorant about this, but still my question remains unanswered. How does having dealers play as well benefit the casino? I can imagine so many bad scenarios (dealer being hot & breaking somone and being accused of cheating, dealer losing a big hand and tilting off at a customer, etc.). So in some way the casinos must benefit more than these drawbacks for them to be in favor it. It the rake the dealer contributes that worthwhile?

Re: Props and check-raising
 

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Because even though you and I view Check-Raising as a part of the game, there are many people who view it as a dirty trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and they should be playing Old Maid, not poker. To the OP, Nit was way out of line. Any player at the poker table should have the same tools available as any other player.

I'd love to play at a game where some other players have voluntarily crippled their game -- but wait -- that's why God created fish.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
my question remains unanswered.

[/ QUOTE ]


It takes a lot of people by surprise the first time they see it but it really is very common.

Most poker dealers don’t really play very well and experienced players usually welcome the action. It’s been said that a poker player’s favorite fantasy is to see a table with nine white shirts and an empty seat. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Props and check-raising
 

well, if he were to look at the big picture... depending on the situation... there might not have been a game for them to play in if it weren't for the props, so he should STFU and pay the extra bet

Re: Props and check-raising
 

Nothing new. Player (mostly older farts) still take checkraising personal. When a employee does it, they instantly think something is up since the dealer and player work together at the same place. OR they think that an employee shouldn't be doing such a 'personal' move against them as it reflects(to them) badly on the establishment.

Yep, it's BS and these mopes are whiny bitches, but it's nothing new. I know many dealers/floor that wouldn't play players in 'their' rooms hard. For the very reasons stated: Tips when they are working. I've had a dealer apologize to me for c/r'ing me before. I said don't worry about it and encouraged him to play me hard when he can. Unfortuantely, the majority of nitty wimps don't share that sentiment.

It's stupid and sad, but true.

The problem is some of these regular idiots are the ones that hold the game together during the slow times. You don't want to piss off your core players that are making your paycheck.

b

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]

I already stated I'm ignorant about this, but still my question remains unanswered. How does having dealers play as well benefit the casino? I can imagine so many bad scenarios (dealer being hot & breaking somone and being accused of cheating, dealer losing a big hand and tilting off at a customer, etc.). So in some way the casinos must benefit more than these drawbacks for them to be in favor it. It the rake the dealer contributes that worthwhile?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are missing the point that the dealers are playing while on the clock, but not in a game they are actually dealing in. There is another dealer dealing the cards, and the dealer playing is getting his wage (without tips of course) to play poker, not deal and play at the same time.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I already stated I'm ignorant about this, but still my question remains unanswered. How does having dealers play as well benefit the casino? I can imagine so many bad scenarios (dealer being hot & breaking somone and being accused of cheating, dealer losing a big hand and tilting off at a customer, etc.). So in some way the casinos must benefit more than these drawbacks for them to be in favor it. It the rake the dealer contributes that worthwhile?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are missing the point that the dealers are playing while on the clock, but not in a game they are actually dealing in. There is another dealer dealing the cards, and the dealer playing is getting his wage (without tips of course) to play poker, not deal and play at the same time.

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That explains it all thanks! haha. I thought deal + play combo.

HORSESHOE TUNICA is what you are addressing this thread
 

The complainer was probably angry about something I have observed in Horseshoe Tunica. "Prop"? A "prop" is used to fill games and to start games, in short handed scenarios.

THOSE PROFESSIONAL CARD PLAYERS WHO DOUBLE AS DEALERS in Horseshoe are NOT "props". Real props typically leave a game, where there is a long list of persons waiting to play.
The so-called props in Horseshoe KEEP THE SEAT TIED UP, sometimes for hours. I have personally seen a Horseshoe dealer, playing in a game, leave that game, where he HAD HIS BUDDY PLAY HIS MONEY, until the dealer did his time in the "box"...THEN RETURNED TO THE GAME (full of tourists) !!! That's not a "prop". That's a professional player making money, from the visitors.

I may as well get it all out...Those who run Horseshoe must think they are the smartest folks and everyone else is dumb.
For those of you who WORK THERE, be advised that many of us have PLAYED CARDS in LAS VEGAS with some of those very persons you call "props", when they were PROFESSIONAL POKER PLAYERS....and you know of whom I speak.

It may have seemed the player was complaining about a "check-raise", when he was actually complaining about a HORSESHOE EMPLOYEE BULLDOG, being "sicced" on him.

To heck with a rule change regarding check-raising, that's not the real issue...GET THOSE "ON DUTY" HORSESHOE DEALERS OUT OF ALL THE GAMES. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]




[ QUOTE ]
I was dealing in a 4-8 game the other day with 2 props. One of the props check-raised the flop and led out to the river with a set against a "nitty" player. Aftr the hand was over the nit player absolutly LIT into the prop for check-raising and told him he'd never tip him again when he dealt. The prop replied that he was only playing his hand and it was nothing personal. The prop literarly had to get up and walk from the table to avoid confrontation from the player. Now my view is the room needs props. Props help the players and the room start games and hold short games together. It's hard enough to get good props to play knowing they're giving up a "X" amount of money they could make dealing. Taking away the ability to check-raise from a prop is like taking away the pass rush in football. It's hard enough to beat a low limit game like 4-8. Check-raise is PART OF THE GAME. The nit player that got mad in my opinion was way out of line by getting upset with the prop. I personaly would never support a rule not allowing a prop to check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: HORSESHOE TUNICA is what you are addressing this thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
The complainer was probably angry about something I have observed in Horseshoe Tunica. "Prop"? A "prop" is used to fill games and to start games, in short handed scenarios.

THOSE PROFESSIONAL CARD PLAYERS WHO DOUBLE AS DEALERS in Horseshoe are NOT "props". Real props typically leave a game, where there is a long list of persons waiting to play.
The so-called props in Horseshoe KEEP THE SEAT TIED UP, sometimes for hours. I have personally seen a Horseshoe dealer, playing in a game, leave that game, where he HAD HIS BUDDY PLAY HIS MONEY, until the dealer did his time in the "box"...THEN RETURNED TO THE GAME (full of tourists) !!! That's not a "prop". That's a professional player making money, from the visitors.

I may as well get it all out...Those who run Horseshoe must think they are the smartest folks and everyone else is dumb.
For those of you who WORK THERE, be advised that many of us have PLAYED CARDS in LAS VEGAS with some of those very persons you call "props", when they were PROFESSIONAL POKER PLAYERS....and you know of whom I speak.

It may have seemed the player was complaining about a "check-raise", when he was actually complaining about a HORSESHOE EMPLOYEE BULLDOG, being "sicced" on him.

To heck with a rule change regarding check-raising, that's not the real issue...GET THOSE "ON DUTY" HORSESHOE DEALERS OUT OF ALL THE GAMES. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]




[ QUOTE ]
I was dealing in a 4-8 game the other day with 2 props. One of the props check-raised the flop and led out to the river with a set against a "nitty" player. Aftr the hand was over the nit player absolutly LIT into the prop for check-raising and told him he'd never tip him again when he dealt. The prop replied that he was only playing his hand and it was nothing personal. The prop literarly had to get up and walk from the table to avoid confrontation from the player. Now my view is the room needs props. Props help the players and the room start games and hold short games together. It's hard enough to get good props to play knowing they're giving up a "X" amount of money they could make dealing. Taking away the ability to check-raise from a prop is like taking away the pass rush in football. It's hard enough to beat a low limit game like 4-8. Check-raise is PART OF THE GAME. The nit player that got mad in my opinion was way out of line by getting upset with the prop. I personaly would never support a rule not allowing a prop to check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

In many markets props (moreso with dealers) are allowed to stay in their seat once they get in it. They have started the game and there would be no game to play if they hadn't started it. In a dealer's case they gave up a lot of money they could have made in order to start a game, it would be unreasonable to now ask them to leave that seat.

As far as standard props it varies by room. I have worked in markets where they dont' even have to tell you who the props are and they typically remain in the game even when it is full. Other places the props have to get up when the game fills and some other places they have to get up when the list gets to a certain length.

Re: HORSESHOE TUNICA is what you are addressing this thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
GET THOSE "ON DUTY" HORSESHOE DEALERS OUT OF ALL THE GAMES.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess your not there when the game wouldn't have started without the "dealer" helping.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

ive heard from a dealers at the Gardena clubs that they don't play (even for fun) at the same casinos they deal at for the same reasons.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]

BTW Chipr....the shoe does not have "props" by the true definition of the word. I would just call them dealers playing in a game. And screw the nit.

[/ QUOTE ]



that explains it.

I was going to say that I was completely unaware that the Horseshoe has 'props'.

I already knew that the dealers there frequently play in the games and I have no problem with that...but had no clue that they actually had 'props'.

Now i know that they really DON'T have props.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

In my mind a prop is a dealer playing in a game while on the clock. A prop at Horseshoe is playing with his or her own money. They risk loosing and also keep what they win. Our dealers are NOT allowed to play if they're not on the clock. The poster that mentioned that dealers playing while on the clock at Horseshoe should get up when the game fills has no idea how valuable a prop is to the room. They're required to play in short games if that's the case, move to a short table if need be, and be able to play whatever limits are needed.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

do they only get base-salary then or do they get anything additional for their hours playing to make up for the tips they aren't getting??

was unaware that they weren't allowed to play in their room when off the clock.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
do they only get base-salary then or do they get anything additional for their hours playing to make up for the tips they aren't getting??


[/ QUOTE ]
Base pay. $5 an hour.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

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There are some players I will never check-raise head-up because there are things that are more important than the extra few dollars I would win on that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Andy, I am disappointed.

Re: HORSESHOE TUNICA is what you are addressing this thread
 

No, I'm not. When games are started under those circumstances, they are unprofitable for me. I never play in (Harrah's) Horseshoe Tunica, during the weekdays on the day shift. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
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GET THOSE "ON DUTY" HORSESHOE DEALERS OUT OF ALL THE GAMES.


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I guess your not there when the game wouldn't have started without the "dealer" helping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: HORSESHOE TUNICA is what you are addressing this thread
 

Um, why are you playing at the horseshoe? PM me if you'd like an invite to the game over at the hospice.

Re: Props and check-raising
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are some players I will never check-raise head-up because there are things that are more important than the extra few dollars I would win on that hand.

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Andy, I am disappointed.

[/ QUOTE ]


Disappointed that he said what is true or disappointed in that you don't believe what he said is true...?

Make no mistake: there is no doubt that with some people what he said is 100% accurate.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com