Is this type of move part of your game?
 

So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs. When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter

SB (t2710)
Hero (t1435)
UTG (t1445)
MP (t340)
CO (t3460)
Button (t4110)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1285</font>, SB folds.

Final Pot: t2035

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

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i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

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When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.


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huh?

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

I think the 3x big blind bet on the flop is a little too rich for me... but when people bet out 1-2 big blind bets, and i'm fairly certain they're bluffing, its quite easy to raise here.

the most important thing I've noticed is that it has to be 4-5 people/bubble time.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

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i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

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When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.


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huh?

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WHy does 'picking off a bluff' necesarily have to be calling it? Wouldn't pushing him off it be the same thing?

And what he was saying is that when you think they're bluffing it doesn't matter what cards you have, cause they can't call you. (assuming your right)

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs. When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter

SB (t2710)
Hero (t1435)
UTG (t1445)
MP (t340)
CO (t3460)
Button (t4110)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1285</font>, SB folds.

Final Pot: t2035

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I like this against particular opponents who I think will bet with air and fold when you show strength.

I think my table image is another important factor when deciding whether or not to try this. I wouldnt do it "all the time" by any means.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

Ive been picking off some bluffls lately (river especially) where I will raise (90% sure I am ahead) all-in after they bet, say 600. mY raise is 200-300 more and they actually fold! (2000+ in pot) this has happened 3-4 times in last couple of days and one thing about picking off a bluff is that if you think they are on one, your FE doesnt matter...they will fold.

NH

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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...the most important thing I've noticed is that it has to be 4-5 people/bubble time.

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That's the most importan caveat for me, also. I usually reserve it as a response to smaller bets and only after they've done the same thing a few times. I like to bluff the flop instead of raise them off their hand pre-flop because a lot of players will call a 3-4xbb raise to see three cards.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

You needed one more button, I know I should try this but lack the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] !

I just hate the thought of getting picked of by a 9, but I think you read the hand real well. SB just completes, is he really going to lead out with trip nines? Especially for a overbet? I guess the real fear is will he call with a 6?

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

nice

this is easier to do if u see that the opp makes cbets quite often

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

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i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

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If he has Kx, he almost certainly cannot call my raise. So his bet is a bluff, and I pick it off by forcing him off his better hand.

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When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.


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huh?

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My phrasing is unclear, I guess. Basically what I mean is, if your opponent bluffs allin, and you are fairly certain he has jack high, there's not much you can do (because he might be bluffing with king high or queen high). But if he just bets, you can raise with your jack high getting him to fold what is the better hand (which of course he doesn't know).

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

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i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

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When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.


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huh?

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he's not calling the bluff...he's raising the bluffer all-in...so he doesn't have to have the best showdown hand, he just has to be accurate that the guy was bluffing so will fold


he's saying that if ur opp bluffed all-in, then your hand matters, as it'll go to showdown

but if your opp didn't go all-in, then your hand doesn't matter cause he'll fold if he was bluffing...if he wasn't bluffing, he'll call and have u beat no matter your hand, unless you did have a hand, in which case you weren't bluffing

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

I'm glad this one worked out for you, but I'm not sure I trust someone who overbets that board in a $27 turbo out of the SB to lay down.

The average opponent is going to expect you to represent a 9 by smooth calling, and I definitely don't want to have this clown call me with K6o because he thinks I'm shoving 87 or making some sort of move.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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I just hate the thought of getting picked of by a 9,

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I was more afraid of this than him calling with ace high. He almost never has a 6 with that bet.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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I just hate the thought of getting picked of by a 9,

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I was more afraid of this than him calling with ace high. He almost never has a 6 with that bet.

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I just don't think there's any chance he has a 9. I don't think 'donks' play a 9 that way. I think they slowplay it.

So, if he doesn't have a 9, he can't call. So, your push is good. When I do this, I usually like to have a little something though, in the case that I do get called by ... A2o or some crap.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

at least he had runner-runner straight, runner-runner flush? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

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Because he sucks and wants to 'buy' the pot and doesn't have a real hand that he thinks he can make a lot of money from.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

I am somewhere between the second and third option. I do this if I think villain gets out of line and I think he knows how to fold. Also, how I have been playing lately has a big impact on whether I make this move or not. In the posted hand it seems really natural (unless sb is really passive post flop). I do the move small blind did a lot, too, except with a T150-200 bet.

His overbet reaks of weakness, and he cannot easily justify playing a 9 (or even a 6) like this with some multi-level thinking argument because even if you know for sure he does not have a pair, there are still not a lot of hands you can play on with. The only time this is slick from his spot is if he has a 9 and knows you there is a good chance you will go for a resteal, but would otherwise probably just check behind.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

No way! I usually play people who actually realise when they're pot committed. Looks like you got lucky and made this play against a donk. Very unwise unless you have a super-solid read.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

Why is the SB pot committed? He has almost 2100 left.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

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Because he sucks and wants to 'buy' the pot and doesn't have a real hand that he thinks he can make a lot of money from.

[/ QUOTE ]If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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I am somewhere between the second and third option.

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What percent of the time do you have to succeed to do this with a truly air hand? Obviously when you get called you basically have zero pot equity. Any time your ICM $EV &gt; 0? How much cushion do you want to give yourself? You can never be entirely sure of your opponents call range.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

only if he knows his opp is the kind of player that would see this overbet as weakness and try to steal the pot

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

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Yes, it's a very smooth move that nails people in mid-high limit cash games since they love picking off weird overbets on relatively dry boards; but at a low-limit SNG you need to know you have a LAGgy playmaker behind you who can read a board, or you're losing value (that is if you have the 9).

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

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Because he sucks and wants to 'buy' the pot and doesn't have a real hand that he thinks he can make a lot of money from.

[/ QUOTE ]If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

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I believe it was Lorinda that showed a bunch of examples where she moved all-in overbetting the pot, w/ monster hands (AA preflop, sets on the flop) and got called by extremely marginal hands thinking they were picking off bluffs, I have started to do this at the lower levels (22s. 33s) and it has been working with some success.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?


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only if he knows his opp is the kind of player that would see this overbet as weakness and try to steal the pot

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This is why regular games can be so much fun, you get into this third level thinking. Online at my limits I don't see people enough to know what they are thinking. You can get a sense of whether they are any good or not but rarely more than that.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

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Linky

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

I have been doing this, but more often when they bet minimum or something small into the pot after completing the sb.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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Ive been picking off some bluffls lately (river especially) where I will raise (90% sure I am ahead) all-in after they bet, say 600. mY raise is 200-300 more and they actually fold! (2000+ in pot) this has happened 3-4 times in last couple of days and one thing about picking off a bluff is that if you think they are on one, your FE doesnt matter...they will fold.

NH

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one of these was against me Im pretty sure, I called the flop and turn and raised the river less than all in trying to represent like I wanted a call and you pushed but I still had 400 or so behind so I folded and I ended up busting you later when you pushed in with 4 6 or something [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

I feel like, at the lower levels against donks, you're getting called too often with hands like 33 and AJ to make it +EV (although even then, it might be +EV, but marginally so). A donkey open-complete can mean anything, IMO - I'm not surprised if this play gets called by a donk AK-A10 or a mid/low pocket pair.

I don't hate the play, either - but I've seen one too many donks open-complete with AJ (thinking they're slowplaying it), only to call off their whole stack whether or not the flop hits their hand or not. I'd only use it if I had a some confidence in a read. For what it's worth, I couldn't agree more that the bettor there almost never has a 6.

If this is a $22-$55, I like the play more. So to answer your question, I would only use it against players I thought were mediocre; I'm scared of good, solid players overbet-trapping with a 9, and I'm scared of complete donks calling with crap/having a 9 and giving no thought to bet sizes --&gt; relation to the pot.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

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i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

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If he has Kx, he almost certainly cannot call my raise. So his bet is a bluff, and I pick it off by forcing him off his better hand.

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When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.


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huh?

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My phrasing is unclear, I guess. Basically what I mean is, if your opponent bluffs allin, and you are fairly certain he has jack high, there's not much you can do (because he might be bluffing with king high or queen high). But if he just bets, you can raise with your jack high getting him to fold what is the better hand (which of course he doesn't know).

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ok, apparently i don't know what "picking off a bluff" means. thought it was only calling and not re-bluffing as well.

nice link on strassa's overbet thread, btw.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

i do this pretty rarely, and only against guys that i've seen lead out a lot of flops like this in the past, and then either fold to a raise or check/fold the turn. it's incredibly satisfying, because i'm usually the one leading with air (especially into paired flops) and then having to fold .

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

Another option is to do what you would probably actually do with a 9: call. This will make it very difficult for him to bluff at it again, plus will give you a chance to move all in on the turn, since some sort of draw will be present, making it look like you just want to take it down there, with your 9. Of course, if he bets again, then you'll probably regret it. This play is much better if the stacks are larger. One more bet would pot-commmit him, so it would be too late to raise/bluff on the turn.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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I am somewhere between the second and third option.

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What percent of the time do you have to succeed to do this with a truly air hand? Obviously when you get called you basically have zero pot equity. Any time your ICM $EV &gt; 0? How much cushion do you want to give yourself? You can never be entirely sure of your opponents call range.

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If I had to guess, I would say this push works 80-90% of the time I try it, which means I probably don't do it enough. If I have been folding a lot lately, I think I have to make this sort of move because 1. it should get more respect and 2. I need to fight back somewhere or I might as well wear a please rape me sign.

Opponents call range is the big thing, as you note. So many people don't think about how they will respond to a raise before they bet. I love it and hate it. I love seeing people making big mistakes, but I hate having such a poor idea of my FE.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

No f'in way I do that. Let him have the pot. Might consider that if I had a strong Ax and a great read, but I am likely folding if my read is not there or not strong. That is FPS and it has cost me more than I would win when I tried it in the past.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

Hmm, you left off "I only do this when I'm drunk" so I voted never. Aren't there enough opportunities to semi-rebluff, that you don't have to re-post-oak-bluff?

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

Isn't a post-oak bluff betting a small amount into a big pot to represent a huge hand that wants action? If so, how is this a re-post-oak bluff?

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

I need to have seen villain take the line bet/fold on a paired flop before I do this. I suspect that if I were better at hand-reading, this wouldn't be necessary.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

You are right. I'm an idiot. Are you happy? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I thought post-oak bluff was total bluff with no hand or outs. I'll have to change that to just a re-bluff I guess.

Re: Is this type of move part of your game?
 

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Why is the SB pot committed? He has almost 2100 left.

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He has 600 invested wih a little over 600 to call with 2 cards to come. The fact that he has 2100 left should HELP the decision to call as it won't cripple him. This is so obvious to me.