Admitting defeat
 

About August 10th I decided I would take the rest of the month off to focus on the 20/40 and 30/60 games as the bigger games were stressing me out and making poker not fun. I had a blast the rest of the month and a few days into september I got back into the higher games again with a very clear mind. I won quite a bit right away but then ran bad and ended the month with 20k less than I had on the 12th. Or maybe I'm not as good as I thought and don't really have an edge. I was pretty sure I did as there were lots of sick beats. I was still upbeat and feeling good (james can attest to this) but wasn't sure if the most money can be made at the bigger games over the 30's and 20's for a player like me. I kept trudging along.

Things went decent then this past Monday I had a great day. I think my biggest day ever. +34k. Was really hot and I was playing great poker. Today was the complete opposite. -48k. ooof.

After 38k I took a break. I wasn't upset and was feeling 'fine' but am sure I had lost my fearlessness. You need it to beat the high limit games. I didn't have it. Went and played live for 4 hours. Came back, dropped another 10k. That's a sick amount of money. I'm not upset, I just don't think I'm ready for this kind of stuff...and that's what's frustrating to me. I don't like failing or admitting defeat on stuff, but I think the right play here is finishing the month playing 30's. I'm still up 9k on the month and I gotta remind myself that's still a great paycheck. At least the 50/100 / 100/200 party games suck usually...so it won't be a huge temptation.

High-limits: You win again. I'm sure we'll meet again someday...when I'm ready.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

at least u gave it another go....and im sure u will again! and are doing good mentally with the losses!

Re: Admitting defeat
 

You know what might really help? If you passed on your knowledge, like in that movie.......So, how about tutoring me for free......You get to look at your game from a fresh perspective as you are correcting mistakes of another, that you no longer make, however, you will be addressing issues of hands that will have you looking at possibilities from another perspective.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

If you're Bicyclekick on Party and your Empire name is what I thought it was S..S.. that means I saw you playing at least 8 50/100+ tables at the same time which may be a tad much. Although I think these 2 players have a bit different stats so I'm probably wrong.

The higher limit games are very rarely good though and usually only for 20-30 minutes at a time. The nice thing after playing them is bad beats on the 30 now feel like chump change and it's much easier to put them in their proper perspective.

Best regards,
-f

Re: Admitting defeat
 

The greatest victory for a conqueror is to be conquered.


This quote seems right on the money for this post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

personally I like stress-free 20-40 ~ 30-60 games.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

How much hands did you play at 100/200+?

Re: Admitting defeat
 

When I played 100-200 for a time, I was sure I had an edge b/c the play was so awful. Didn't stop me from losing a sickening sum in one day that truly made me HATE LIFE. Then I said...why am I doing this to myself when I can make good money at the 20 and 30 games with no financial stress? So that's what I did and it was the best decision I personally have ever made. To satisfy my urge to play higher, I do so when I'm in Atlantic City. Reasons: The games are MUCH better than online in terms of action and clueless pit gamblers wandering in and the pace is much slower. Anyway, that's my take...every night does not have to be a do or die financial consequence.

Jeff

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much hands did you play at 100/200+?

[/ QUOTE ]

of 100/200+
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...ick/100200.jpg

including 50/100:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...kick/50100.jpg

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I played 100-200 for a time, I was sure I had an edge b/c the play was so awful. Didn't stop me from losing a sickening sum in one day that truly made me HATE LIFE. Then I said...why am I doing this to myself when I can make good money at the 20 and 30 games with no financial stress? So that's what I did and it was the best decision I personally have ever made. To satisfy my urge to play higher, I do so when I'm in Atlantic City. Reasons: The games are MUCH better than online in terms of action and clueless pit gamblers wandering in and the pace is much slower. Anyway, that's my take...every night does not have to be a do or die financial consequence.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]


i think this is a great post. i'm feeling the same thing lately. i play high limits and just get beat by the most sickening bad beats, so you know the game is good, yes i'm still losing a lot of money (although maybe not a lot of BETS in terms of the game i'm playing). it just makes you feel sick, and i think back to the 30/60 and how it has been my bread and butter and all the money i've made from it, and it just seems so clear that the best thing to do is to stay there for a long while.

i also like the part of your post that talks about live play. i agree that if you are gonna play higher, just reserve it for live play.. the games are fishier, it's easier to concentrate (for me) and more fun than online by far.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

WOW. Thanks for posting.

A timely retreat is worth a thousand victories.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

This is a good thread for someone like me, who makes his make in the 30, but keeps overextending himself with higher limit shots. Good luck BK.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

Thanks for posting complete stats.

You ensure me not to play higher than 50/100 at least until advertisment invites more millionaries to online higher stakes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit: Also thanks a lot for saving my time and nerves (and probably money) pushing high limits to figure out what ev am i at.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much hands did you play at 100/200+?

[/ QUOTE ]

of 100/200+
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...ick/100200.jpg

including 50/100:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...kick/50100.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! How do you deal with such horrible results? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Admitting defeat
 

I did this same post a few weeks ago. My 30/60 adventures lasted at least 3 days. But because I don't play every day or for a living things for me are different.

I\'m with ya, BK . . .
 

My story is somewhat similar. With me, the worst thing that happened was that PP started the 50 and 100 games. Before this, I was content to drag in my 10-20k per month in the 30 game. I found myself taking shots, being stressed out, and breaking about even for the last 6 weeks.

I tried to go back to the 30 game, but again got tempted away, and have broken even for the last 2 weeks.

Some good days, some bad. Some solid plays, some weak.

My problem? Don't know who I want to be -- and this affects my play. The big PP shakeup doesnt help.

I am biding my time, practicing some law, and waiting until I feel right again.

I am sitting on my profits, not wanting to put it at risk in a big 1-2 month-long session. When I get my mind right, I will return with a vengeance.

Until then, it's night court and motion practice.

TSP

Re: Admitting defeat
 

Obviously you just have problems playing with Euros. Stick to dollars and pounds and you should be fine.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

BK, did these games usually run short? The VPIP looks a bit high

Re: Admitting defeat
 

I can sympathize. As someone who's used to playing higher than 1/2 live, I was surprised when I first started playing online at how different and difficult the 1/2 games online were.

These days, I've settled onto a routine. I will only play 1/2 if the game is good and never more than 2 at a time. But most of my time is spent 4-tabling the 30/60. And I find that I enjoy it more, can win without playing my A-game (just yesterday, I called a raise in the SB w/ 62s, went on to win a large pot and laughed as some guy insulted obscenities at me), no financial stress, and I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

And live 3/6 mixed games are usually quite a bit easier than typical Stars 1/2. (or maybe I'm just not a holdem specialist)

Re: Admitting defeat
 

It's always a wakeup call when you have a day like, unfortunatley i have had a few latley. Anyway, it seems you're a proven winner in the 100-200 games, and the swings are probably significantly less in relation to your BR, which is easier on the mind.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that you're like 22. You should feel bad because you are having some trouble beating basically the highest limit game online against some very tough opponents. You and I spoke once, and we were saying how the "poker world" is different than the real one. This makes it easy to lose sight of things, but you are been playing for like 2-3 years and make more money than 99.999999% of your peers, i would say you are on the right path [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If that eventually leads you back to 300-600 great, and if it doesnt, you'll be [censored] rich anyway.

Gabe

Re: Admitting defeat
 

Great post BK. A few days ago I had my worst day too -23K, it was not from poker it was from party blackjack oof! I'm such an idiot but that's another story.

Funny thing was even though I was down 23K I felt really fine. I slept good and was in an upbeat mood the next day. I remembered the first time I lost 1K I almost broke down in a cold sweat. I guess it does help that I'm still up a good amount for the month though, otherwise [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] I made a killing this month in poker only to lose 23K in party BJ wtf!! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] I won't be playing that anymore, shesh.

I think you'll get back on another winning street and forget about this though. It's poker and sometimes even the very best players start to doubt themselves when they go on a losing streak. You have one of the best minds in poker I've seen and I have no doubt you'd be a very successful very high limit player.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

Everyone has their comfort zone, and for most there's
an upper limit. For me, I'm just not comfortable beyond 40-80, plus my skill set isn't geared towards the bigger games.

A great post. Everyone needs to know their limitations.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

i second that. I don't quite play as high as you , but often play 80/160 or 100/200 mixed live and it is easier than any middle level party or stars game, and its not particularly close.

even the straight 80 holdem game at bellagio is comparable to the party 10.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

how did you lose that much on bj? isn't max bet $200?

Re: Admitting defeat
 

I'm not really trained to handle situations bigger than $15/30 or so, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm here if you need me.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I find that I enjoy it more, can win without playing my A-game (just yesterday, I called a raise in the SB w/ 62s, went on to win a large pot and laughed as some guy insulted obscenities at me), no financial stress, and I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you so good? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Admitting defeat
 

Look at the BB/100.

-Diplomat

Re: Admitting defeat
 

It's no doubt a very emotionally draining limit on most, a fast, furious and usually very tough game, and some rake to boot too.

1000 big bet swings are common in this game, I know of several persons who have endured them.

lars

Re: Admitting defeat
 

endured means they are still playing. I call BS on 1000 BB swings being common at 300/600.

can you name a few players who "endured" this and are still around? the specific game BK is referring to, and i guess you must be too, i think i know close to every player who plays it with any regularity.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great post BK. A few days ago I had my worst day too -23K, it was not from poker it was from party blackjack oof! I'm such an idiot but that's another story.

Funny thing was even though I was down 23K I felt really fine. I slept good and was in an upbeat mood the next day. I remembered the first time I lost 1K I almost broke down in a cold sweat. I guess it does help that I'm still up a good amount for the month though, otherwise [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] I made a killing this month in poker only to lose 23K in party BJ wtf!! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] I won't be playing that anymore, shesh.

I think you'll get back on another winning street and forget about this though. It's poker and sometimes even the very best players start to doubt themselves when they go on a losing streak. You have one of the best minds in poker I've seen and I have no doubt you'd be a very successful very high limit player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey pete, the blackjack thing is not a good sign. It could be an early warning sign of a gambling problem. Seems like you learned your lesson though, so gratz for that.
-James

Re: Admitting defeat
 

Ballsy post. This, among other things(keeping a positive attitude during downswings) is really a testament to how far you've come over the last year or so. Compare this to some of your other "results" posts and be proud, bud.
-James

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I find that I enjoy it more, can win without playing my A-game (just yesterday, I called a raise in the SB w/ 62s, went on to win a large pot and laughed as some guy insulted obscenities at me), no financial stress, and I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you so good? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

All it really means is I play till I win. Remember, online 4-tabling, you can get almost as many hands in a long day as you could in a reasonable (but short) MONTH of casino play. And frankly, against the typical 30/60 competition, you should almost never have to book a losing month in live play.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this reasonable? (I'll assume by "almost never" you mean 5% of the time or less.)

Even averaging 2000 hands a day as a solid winner, I would think that "almost never" booking losing days isn't feasible given the standard deviation a typical player would have in these games.

Or am I way off?

Re: Admitting defeat
 

the 300/600 post you made recently where you said something to the effect of absolutely killing the game and being up 20k in about 45 minutes had me wondering how the reverse would be acccepted, just the implication of domination when the amount was around 30 big bets. now i'm not sure if it was based on the way the hands were going down in terms of table control or the money, but i thought of 30/60, and how often one can be up $1800 in 45 minutes at a given table. not that i wouldn't be elated about being up 20k in an exciting game, i just think if it involved that much of my emotion i would be putting too much at risk.

i think it's a great idea to play high enough often enough so that your regular game and its variance is totally acceptable, just not so high or so often that you can't be forced to care. not exciting enough, all your friends are playing high limits because you took a shot and now they're running well, or that sort of thing. if that could happen i think it's a bigger concern than whatever you might win or lose on a given day of playing.

it's seemed for a long time that you've had your head screwed on straight so i'm sure it will work out well.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.


[/ QUOTE ]

huh? no variance in the 30/60 game?

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this reasonable? (I'll assume by "almost never" you mean 5% of the time or less.)

Even averaging 2000 hands a day as a solid winner, I would think that "almost never" booking losing days isn't feasible given the standard deviation a typical player would have in these games.

Or am I way off?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how this is possible.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this reasonable? (I'll assume by "almost never" you mean 5% of the time or less.)

Even averaging 2000 hands a day as a solid winner, I would think that "almost never" booking losing days isn't feasible given the standard deviation a typical player would have in these games.

Or am I way off?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a LONG day, I can get in almost twice as many hands. (remember I'm playing short often) And I'm just under 2bb/100 winner at the 30/60. Don't know what my std dev is and all that. run the math and let me know. But my losing day % is somewhere between 5-10% (don't know precisely but probably closer to the 5 than the 10)

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this reasonable? (I'll assume by "almost never" you mean 5% of the time or less.)

Even averaging 2000 hands a day as a solid winner, I would think that "almost never" booking losing days isn't feasible given the standard deviation a typical player would have in these games.

Or am I way off?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a LONG day, I can get in almost twice as many hands. (remember I'm playing short often) And I'm just under 2bb/100 winner at the 30/60. Don't know what my std dev is and all that. run the math and let me know. But my losing day % is somewhere between 5-10% (don't know precisely but probably closer to the 5 than the 10)

[/ QUOTE ]

you are clearly a poker god. nuff said.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I've found that w/ the level of competition at 30/60 and the number of hands you can get 4-tabling, I almost never have to book a losing day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this reasonable? (I'll assume by "almost never" you mean 5% of the time or less.)

Even averaging 2000 hands a day as a solid winner, I would think that "almost never" booking losing days isn't feasible given the standard deviation a typical player would have in these games.

Or am I way off?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. But it's also highly possible that phish is playing very well and also running extremely well.
-James

Re: Admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a LONG day, I can get in almost twice as many hands. (remember I'm playing short often) And I'm just under 2bb/100 winner at the 30/60. Don't know what my std dev is and all that. run the math and let me know. But my losing day % is somewhere between 5-10% (don't know precisely but probably closer to the 5 than the 10)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure someone (other than me) can do the math quite easily. But why should anyone have to?

Why not just let us know how many hands and your standard deviation over said hands? (You've already given your approximate results over said number of hands.)

Or you could just give us the number of hands and someone (again, other than me) can estimate a standard deviation and work from there.

Re: Admitting defeat
 

I just mentioned that august thing yesturday.

very sorry to hear about your bad day. i know i dont have the stomach for that variance...and everybody goes through some sick beats and amazing US$value swings in that game.

you're more than welcome and my NL tables though [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]....

seriously. you're a bigger man today than you were when you went to bed on monday.

Barron