Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Button is IMO the best player on stars. He is very very good, and very very LAG. UTG is fairly good, semi-solid (but still a slight bit laggy).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (7 handed)


BB ($2973)
UTG ($8708)
Hero ($13087.40)
MP2 ($1980)
CO ($1735)
Button ($9420)
SB ($1837)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $80</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $80, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $60.

Flop: ($270) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $180</font>, Button calls $180, UTG calls $180.

Turn: ($810) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $620</font>, Button calls $620, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2200</font>,

Hero pukes, and?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Is UTG capable of playing Q5s here?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

The problem is that i really don't know... Q5s i highly doubt, Q9/8s, Axs, low sc's, low pps yes. However most of the time, i'd expect a raise from the low pp's, and the higher suited aces (altho i'm not sure). Button's hand shouldn't be ruled out just because he called the first bet either- although its significantly less likely he has a higher flush since he did just call (but still possible for sure).

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Don't u ever expect to see AQo here...?
With either A or Q being a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]...?

I would fold this spot....As essentially u could be drawing to the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] only....

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Man, this one is tough. I mean, the obvious answer of course is that UTG looks like he has Axs, so toss it. But, start putting the two guys on hands, and it maybe is not quite so easy. If you let the guy have crap suited Queens, the laydown becomes far easier. But it looks like you pretty much eliminated Q-high flush for him. So, we're down to nuts or worse than you, it seems. Yuck. F it, man, just do whatever and spike 9d.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

there are perhaps 5 exact hands UTG could have which beat me (a2-a6) I'd expect his other hands which beat me to raise preflop. Button has a hand he really really likes to call my turn bet (I'd say at least TP + good diamond, and this may be too loose). Also he would at least think about pushing Ad Qx if i calld (as a value-bluff of sorts), however i think i would still need to fold if i called and he pushd (as i don't think i have equity vs. his range). I would expect button to reraise AQd preflop most of the time, the other suited aces could be played exactly the same way (although he would usually raise my turn bet). I was more lost here than i think i have ever been in a hand before in my life.

If I had 1580 left i am sure that my call would be quite a bit +EV (i do have an out!) Here im lost. My action, and results, to follow (hopefully in a few days i think this 1 should generate some discussion).

Edited to not include the 8d in villain's hands [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Note that you hold the 8, and Q9d I really think is likely to play faster on the flop to build a pot with these stacks.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
(i do have an out!)

[/ QUOTE ]

You hope! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Of course, the likelihood of him having one of those exact 5 hands skyrockets once he checkraises. So now, the question is, does button hold Ad?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, the likelihood of him having one of those exact 5 hands skyrockets once he checkraises. So now, the question is, does button hold Ad?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having a hard time working out button's hand here.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, the likelihood of him having one of those exact 5 hands skyrockets once he checkraises. So now, the question is, does button hold Ad?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having a hard time working out button's hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If OP thinks button can have something like QdJh here, then I think this is a fold.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

if button is the best player on stars (and thus better than you) and UTG is also good as you say, why are you sitting so deep with them when nobody else has more than 150BB?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Fold

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

because i believe i am much better than utg. And i believe my advantage over UTG is much larger than button's advantage over me.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

button cannot have Qdjx... if the button is drawing it is to the nuts (Ad, or at least KT+) If he has the Ad i expect at least a K (or A) w/ it, and probably AQ. My turn bet obviously shows enormous strength (w/ scare card hitting into 2 opponents and very deep stacks OOP). Obviously he could also have q9 or (maybe) 89 which are drawing dead, although i'm sure he insta-mucks these to the raise- except maybe Qd 9x(as utg obviously likes his hand).

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Ugh, I'm inclined to let this one go. UTG showed a tremendous amount of strength with that check-raise and he still has lots of money he can put in on the river. Plus, the button is playing this awfully cagey and I'm wondering what the hell he's sitting on. Then... here comes the river. Another diamond? The board paired? Yuck, yuck, yuck, spit.

SpaceAce

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

call
utg inferior flush
button irrelevant straightdraw

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Shouldn't we be more worried about button's cold call on the turn over the UTG raise.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't we be more worried about button's cold call on the turn over the UTG raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why? UTG raised two players who obviously both have pretty good hands.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

On the turn, are you more likely to raise with the nuts or the non nut?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

durr - what hands would you lead with like this on the turn. Probably only the flush right? Both players probably know this?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

I think you have to let this one go. UTG is showing a tremendous amount of strength check-raising two players with these stack sizes, and Button's smooth-call on the flop and the turn makes me very suspicious as well... I don't see you beating both of them at this point. You can't call since

a) Button is yet to act behind you - his raise will obviously knock you out, but if he just overcalls you're in totally shitty shape too

b) Even if Button gets out of the way, UTG is pushing any river so you got another 5K bet (roughly - it's way too early and I'm not doing the exact math right now) coming at you with no better idea of where you stand.


So yeah, I'd fold and take a break for 5 mins.

Kirk

Disclaimer: I said it before, I'll make this disclaimer again - I don't play the Stars 5/10 or 10/20 games.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Am I the only one who is more worried about button then UTG? Buttons call screams strength to me more so than UTG's check-raise, am I on crack?

I think this would be a lot closer if button wasn't in on the action, because he is I think it makes it a fold, not becuase of UTG's cr. Meh?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who is more worried about button then UTG? Buttons call screams strength to me more so than UTG's check-raise, am I on crack?

I think this would be a lot closer if button wasn't in on the action, because he is I think it makes it a fold, not becuase of UTG's cr. Meh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the button's call should scare UTG as much as it scares you.... yet he still went ahead and raised.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

good pt

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

The primary factor in making a decision here is what you know about the two players.

If the button is H@, then you definitely have him beat.

Good chance that UTG doesn't put you on a flush here. But what matters is whether he's the type who might smooth call the flop with a very good made hand and look to raise turn. If you've never seen him do this before, fold.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

is he capable of semibluffing the Ad here?

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

yes craze he was button, and kkellyqq was utg. I'm surprised that you say i definitely havr h@ll beat here- what would you say his range is?

AZK, I don't need a flush to bet the turn, however i need either a flush, a big combo draw (Qd, Jx), the Ad, or a set/top 2. 90% of the time i would check AQ here (unless i had a diamond). The problem is that UTG tends to not notice differences between players (fold too much to LAGs, call TAGs too much). As i said before if after UTG's bet, I was allowed to play only $1580, I am sure a call would be +EV.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't we be more worried about button's cold call on the turn over the UTG raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Button called 600 with a lot behind. UTG checkraised two guys who have hands with deep stacks behind. You worry about button. I'll worry about UTG.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, are you more likely to raise with the nuts or the non nut?

[/ QUOTE ]

The nuts.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, are you more likely to raise with the nuts or the non nut?

[/ QUOTE ]

From UTG's point of view, the nuts, or at least a flush considering he's OOP w/deep stacks and its 3 way in a sizable pot. Im not saying button isn't threatening at all, but I don't see how he can be more threastening than UTG.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Why has NO ONE suggested pushing. Me'thinks there is too much fear (easier said i know). The only thing, repeat, ONLY thing you can be called down by is the NUT flush Asxs. With stacks this deep, the semi-bluff becomes a powerful tool. It staggers me that no-one has suggested this (am i that out of line?)
I hold my breath and push....would never forgive myself if board pairs or another diamond comes....and heck, can't live in fear of someone having that better hand, what r the odds of a suited ace calling a fre-flop raise, not raising the board etc etc. Just push! dammit, do it!

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

because we believe that button isn't a major threat here and pushing removes any possibility of stacking off on an inferior flush

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

Sooooo, you only slow-play when the stacks are Really deep, surely that is the one time not to.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

hero here either has the hand locked or he's dead
raising is suicidal

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

is that best player H@llingal or whatever his name is??

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero here either has the hand locked or he's dead
raising is suicidal

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly if either UTG (unlikely since he probably would have raised preflop) or the button (very likely) has somthing like AQo with only one high diamond, which he might have slow played on the flop, than you are neither dead or have a lock...

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

I'm confident that at button has the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in his hand. I know that doesn't help much, but I'd play the hand under the assumption that he has either got you crushed or has a 4 to 1 draw.

Since H@ is such a regular in the game, it might be a good spot to just stick it all in and show him how big your nuts are. If he has the nutty nut, you can at least be sure that he'll think twice about trying to pull a big semi-bluff in a similar situation.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

His hand range is quite large. But he would have raised somewhere if he had a strong hand. I doubt he has a hand as good as a set. He is not the one to be worried about.

Against KellyQQ I lean toward folding here. Tough fold certainly, but this guy is a very straightforward player and I dont know if he's even capable of limping utg w/ smaller diamonds.

Re: Multi-way 10/20 ps, 500bb stacks
 

If button has the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], then wtf does UTG have?

Sticking it all in to "show" something to H@ is idiotic for multiple reasons, one of which being that he isnt the player that raised. He will fold.

And were he to stack you for 10k it would not lead to him being cautious or respectful of your play lol.

Actually I think you misread the original post.