A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

A line from one of El Diablo's responses to Barron:

Quote:
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The only humourous thing here is watching you make such a f'in clown of yourself even after being given multiple opportunities to salvage some amount of dignity.


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[So I wrote this in replay to El's post. And it explains the reason for this post, in addition my original reply will not be buried in the other thread, which is tedious and long]



This is what happened [I should add that this is my theory]. Barron got someone to fold aces by rather bad play combined with some luck. His opponent, a fool, showed his hand before mucking, thus proving he was a very poor player to begin with. Barron then took this, and working backwards, with results orientated thinking and other poor poker reasoning wrote up an article. To give it some punch he added the quotes from Theory of Poker etc. on the header. Bingo – an ego inflated article that falls flat.

I'm starting to get pissed. And that's something for a stoic like me.

Here is what needs to be done, and you would be the best one to do it. Copy and paste Barron's article into Word. Go through the whole article paragraph by paragraph and put all your comments and questions in italics, interlaced with his original article. That way no doubt or questions can arise to every point made. No quibbling or underhanded tactics will be possible in a response. Make a few remarks about the poor construction of some of the sentences also. Just to add some fun to it.

Then repost it in this forum for all to see.

What I also find troubling is that my friend Andy Fox is having an article published in this magazine. And this oaf Barron is besmirching its reputation just before that happens. Andy can no doubt restore some of the luster but that is beside the point.

You have time for this El Diablo? I hope so.

-Zeno

PS I am also going to make the above as a separate post in this forum.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]

Here is what needs to be done, and you would be the best one to do it. Copy and paste Barron's article into Word. Go through the whole article paragraph by paragraph and put all your comments and questions in italics, interlaced with his original article. That way no doubt or questions can arise to every point made. No quibbling or underhanded tactics will be possible in a response. Make a few remarks about the poor construction of some of the sentences also. Just to add some fun to it.

[/ QUOTE ]


This certainly sounds like a jolly homework assignment. I can only hope you will be participating as well. Perhaps through them redemption will be found. Is their an estimated due date or should I hit "refresh" on this thread every few moments and hope for the best?

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
This certainly sounds like a jolly homework assignment. I can only hope you will be participating as well. Perhaps through them redemption will be found. Is their an estimated due date or should I hit "refresh" on this thread every few moments and hope for the best?



[/ QUOTE ]

I read that article that you linked to in the other thread. It was very interesting.

And with the above response, I understand things better now than before.

Thanks.

I'm done.

I have better things to do with my time.

-Zeno

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have better things to do with my time.


[/ QUOTE ]


We can only hope that the Double D Gang of Diablo and Daryn aren't as responsible with their time.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Zeno,

Someone, perhaps a wiser man than me, gave me the following advice regarding this episode:

First off, there's no question that you are correct about the poker strategy involved. I think what's best is for you not to comment any more. Your points have been clearly made... It should be clear to everyone that Barron is a little on tilt and isn't completely clear in his thinking when responding to you.

I've decided to take those words to heart and just let my statements in the other thread stand. I summarized a number of my thoughts (and enumerated a number of Barron's) regarding this issue in this post in the other thread. At this point, I'm sure Barron is both unwilling and unable to see the error of his ways in the face of overwhelming reason and rationality from all sides, so I don't plan to comment any further in this matter.

You, of course, are welcome to try.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
You, of course, are welcome to try.

[/ QUOTE ]


I reached the same conclusion, see my last response to Barron.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone, perhaps a wiser man than me, gave me the following advice regarding this episode:


First off, there's no question that you are correct about the poker strategy involved. I think what's best is for you not to comment any more. Your points have been clearly made... It should be clear to everyone that Barron is a little on tilt and isn't completely clear in his thinking when responding to you.


[/ QUOTE ]

A wise man, indeed.

I think I'll go read some Seneca or perhaps some Marcus Aurelius.

For the record and as a last comment to Barron, I carry no ill will towards you. In my opinion, I think you are too abstinate and somewhat misguided.

But I wish you the best in both your writing and poker playing careers. I hope you do well by both of them.

-Zeno

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Looking at the two recent Baron articles, I think Diablo has summed it up correctly. Baron looks at a hand where the outcome was favorable (last month it was hitting a gutshot after calling multiple bets on flop and turn) and then comes up with some nonsensical rationale about how he played it like an expert.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Hi Everyone:

I agree with the "Masked Man." This article in question, as well as the pros and cons of Barron's strategy have been well discussed and analyzed, and I think it's fairly clear what everyone thinks whether it is correct or misguided. So in my opinion, it's time to move on to other subjects.

Best wishes,
mason

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Hi phish:

I disagree with you here. Let me talk hypothetically. That is I won't address anything apecific written by any specific author.

If you go to your favorite cardroom and pick up (perhaps) your favorite magazine and read something stupid, there's no recourse. I guess you could send a letter to the editor but it's doubtful that it would ever be published.

On our Internet magazine, that's not the case. If an author gets an article published, and it just happens to be flawed, even if the flaw is a small one, he'll hear about it from our posters. That's part of our policy of holding our writers to a higher standard.

Now put your feet in the writer's shoes. Even though virtually all writers believe that what they write is quite good, they all know that when we put their article up, they may have to address issues they never even thought of.

As you can see, it's not as easy as it appears for someone to have an article published in our Two Plus Two Internet Magazine. So in that sense, it's probably best to take it easy, but not to easy, on our writers when you just happen to think they have presented a misconception.

By the way, none of this applies to anything that Ray Zee writes.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I just read the article and this was the first thread I saw about it. I dont want to be redundant, but I am glad to see that people aren't just eating that garbage up.

I see so many similar hands get praised. I dont want to make any specific examples, especially because some of my favorite players are sometimes guilty (which ill justify at the end).

There are these crazy parlay's that people make often "scarecard draws" others are "longball bluffs" and so on. When they work people say "see, look how clever I am" especially when the EXACT odds on certain events are impossible to ever figure out such as chances of a player folding, etc.

When you see pros make "crazy parlays" like barron's, it is only possible because hands aren't independent of eachother, especially in tournaments. As terrible as Barron's hand looks for anyone who values money, plays like it often gain marginal value from other hands. Just like "advertising" it is a budget that cannot be made to tight.

Last week I was eliminated from a tournament by a rivered gutshot. I thought he was on the flushdraw so he called .7pot bets on the flop and turn(allin). This crazy parlay is ok, because I know he also thinks people who hit lottery jackpots also made good decisions and he doesn't write poker articles.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I basically agree with Mason that there's been enough on this issue. But just a few more thoughts from me since you mentioned me in your post.

While I appreciate the plug, I don't agree that BVT has "besmirched" the reputation of the magazine. I just reread the article. Twice. He doesn't say "this is what you should do." He says, "This is what I did." And he gives his reasons for why he did it. And we've discussed whether we think his reasoning was, well, reasonable. I don't see the ego operating on BVT's part that you and others do.

I myself criticized the play in the original thread and gave me reasons for why I felt it was the wrong play and the wrong time. But BVT gave his reasons why his play was correct and responded, usually with good humor, many times to what were sometimes insulting posts.

I see a difference between writing a book that says, "You should do this and that because . . . " and writing an article which says, "I did this and that because . . . " Mason has addressed this point here and I think it's a valid one.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I basically agree with Mason that there's been enough on this issue. But just a few more thoughts from me since you mentioned me in your post.

While I appreciate the plug, I don't agree that BVT has "besmirched" the reputation of the magazine. I just reread the article. Twice. He doesn't say "this is what you should do." He says, "This is what I did." And he gives his reasons for why he did it. And we've discussed whether we think his reasoning was, well, reasonable. I don't see the ego operating on BVT's part that you and others do.

I myself criticized the play in the original thread and gave me reasons for why I felt it was the wrong play and the wrong time. But BVT gave his reasons why his play was correct and responded, usually with good humor, many times to what were sometimes insulting posts.

I see a difference between writing a book that says, "You should do this and that because . . . " and writing an article which says, "I did this and that because . . . " Mason has addressed this point here and I think it's a valid one.

[/ QUOTE ]



If only this post didn't exist, the above would be my favorite post in quite some time.

Thanks for taking the time, Andy. I will now go out of my way to besmirch you in my review of your article next month.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Nice post Andy. I'd like to say that while I do agree with Diablo et. al, I think Barron has handled himself better. I think some of those in the other thread came across as bullies.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Well done post.

And it is time to let go of all of this and move on, as I also stated in this thread.

So there is nothing more to add here.

Thanks for responding with your ususal good sense.

-Zeno

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
So in that sense, it's probably best to take it easy, but not to easy, on our writers when you just happen to think they have presented a misconception.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because 2+2, and Mason in particular, have always been "easy" on fellow authors of magazine articles and books alike. I'm sure Rolf Slotbloom and Lee Jones would agree.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I don't see any reason why both of them wouldn't agree.

MM

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I'm not El D, nor do I claim to be any good at this game.

However, I can see playing Barron's line.


Given his thinking, I can't justify the line. However, I can see myself playing this hand the same way with different thinking. I'm pretty sure these points were brought up in the long ass thread as well.




Before the hand: I'm playing Frank, who I know respects my play.

Pre-flop: Sweet, let's cap it. He very likely has a good hand here.

Flop: Cool, TPTK, "Raise!" Oh, crap, I could be way behind. Let's cap here to keep showing strength and hope like hell my read is off. Could he have played JJ or AQs this strongly? Probably not. I need another beer, where the hell is the waitress?

Turn: New draw, cool. [censored], he checked to me? WTF kinda setup is this? He has to be setting me up here. Wait a minute, he's gonna play me "honestly" since he respects me. So, KQ is likely out, as are the sets. He woulda gone for a bet-raise after the strength I showed. So, he might have AA or AK (esp. with the Ah), but I'm not ruling out JJ or AQ or AJh. Check or bet, check or bet, hurry, how big is the damn pot?, check or bet, ok, screw it, "bet"--he might think I'm way ahead and fold here. He better not check raise so he can brag to his buddies.

River: Well, he seemed weak there, COOL!, I'm thinking it is AK and not AA so this bet ain't so bad and I have a shot to win outright if my read is wrong or he will dump AK thinking I have two or a set. He better not do some fancy check raise or have made it with AJ.

As I'm collecting the pot: The best hand folds?? WTF-LOL? Wait a minute, I made the best hand fold. Yes! AA bends to my will! I am the best poker player who lives!

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am the best poker player who lives!

[/ QUOTE ]


Coming to this conclusion after reading my article is a quantum leap of illogical proportions.

Fortunately for you, someone else in a roundabout way compared me with Lee Jones, so you are second on my list today to incur my wrath.

In all seriousness, while I may have enjoyed egging Team Double D on more than I should, whether you agree with the point of my article or not, or agree with my (and everyone's) ability to make certain determinations or not, debating the merits is one thing, but questioning my motivations and/or egomania is nonsenical and the cliched dead-end.

I'm just in a holding pattern until OtE #9 comes out next month, which hopefully will be side-by-side with Andy Fox's "Outfoxed" / "The Fox and the Hound" / "From the Foxhole" / whatever part 1.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Dude. I don't know you. I don't know El D. I don't know any of the AIM buddys on his list. I was trying to defend your line, albeit with a different attitude. I've played similar hands in similar ways. More than once. I understand that you have been ripped on for your line--I was trying to defend it. I think it could be a reasonable line, but I don't agree with your thought process during the hand.

"I am the best poker player" is my attitude win or lose...It wasn't meant to be a jab, I can see how you see it as such, and I'm sorry that you do.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]

"I am the best poker player" is my attitude win or lose...It wasn't meant to be a jab, I can see how you see it as such, and I'm sorry that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]


I was kidding, don't worry, so fret not about opening your front door today, I'm not about to Jay-and-Silent-Bob around the country beating down 'net posters for criticisms.

Regardless, this would be best served for the psychology forum, but you should make the first half of what I quoted from you a seperate topic in the that forum as it isn't something I agree with thinking ... but, then again, positive reinforcement has benefits.

But that's a whole other non-OtE story ... but I'm not talking about #8 anymore.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

You may deserve better, you may not, I'm too hammered to make this look any better. I'll still buy you a beer if I'm at Foxwoods.
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/478/b2vt9zq.jpg

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I will take you up on the beer as I'm a sucker for free alcohol, even if offered before what might be the worst comic strip in history - compounded further by listing the $200 article fee as any relevance whatsoever when fincancial considerations wouldn't make my Top 10 reasons for writing anything.

Misconceptions ahoy!

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

The comic is supposed to parallel both the hand in question and the article discussion.

Look for the "low-level" thinking of the random player in panel two. I always assumed your motivation for writing is above this level, so it was to serve as a subtle jab. I find subtle jabs humorous--I hope it did not offend too much.

Look at the non sequitur of panel three (this is where most of the humor should have resided). The jab here is not subtle at all. There is a duality in the response: your character does listen to the random player in panel two and write the article; but, according to many posters, does not listen in the discussion thread. (I also feel as though you have not listened to me in this thread.)

On a different level: Think about what I think about what you think about me and what my motivation behind the comic is. I only care about getting to the results in the last panel (should be an obvious parallel).

If you consider the comic with these thoughts in mind, perhaps you will see the humor. Perhaps I was thinking "too high" or "too low" and the parallels and humor I was trying to express are lost on all save myself. Of course, as I am here trying to explain the humor, it is also quite possible that this is the worst comic in history.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

Your Hyperboledar (and your drawing) needs work.

If you want my Hyperbole-free indignation-feigning-free opinion, I thought it was funny.

Granted, the Fyodor piece was funnier. Unfortunately, much like 1st place, there is no prize for 2nd place.

Maybe I'll add another category for the BarronVangorToth.com Awards this year.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I can draw well. Apparently you missed this

Whether or not it is flattering compared to this:
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/2888/tommy5kk.jpg
I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

I was the guy in this article, but that isn't how the hand ended. Every detail is correct except, on the river I said "You really over played your AK didn't you?" and called. You jumped up cussing and screaming at me, picked up your chips and left.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was the guy in this article, but that isn't how the hand ended. Every detail is correct except, on the river I said "You really over played your AK didn't you?" and called. You jumped up cussing and screaming at me, picked up your chips and left.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO.

Re: A way to end the Barron hubbub - A request to El Diablo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was the guy in this article, but that isn't how the hand ended. Every detail is correct except, on the river I said "You really over played your AK didn't you?" and called. You jumped up cussing and screaming at me, picked up your chips and left.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO.

[/ QUOTE ]



Same.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com