see mike push. push mike, push
 

see i dont know how to play no limit yet.

well that's not really true. ive been playing limit hold em for several years now full time so i do understand things like implied odds, trap hands, bluffing and catching bluffs, ftop and all it's nuances, reading hands and player's tendencies and other things really well. and tilt, i know about tilt, getting into it, staying out of it, spotting people on it. but put that all aside and there's a problem i find myself in quite regularly:

i get red AA in the bb. 5-5 500 max mediocre live game. utg+1 raises to just $10, a bunch of people call, i make it $50 more to go, utg+1 and the button call. they both think im fos from years of laggy limit play, and because they have an incomplete concept of how to play limit hold em really well. but we havent played any nl together. i have $440 and they have me covered. the flop comes TsTc6s.

and i dont know what to do.

so i push.

can someone help me?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

If a bunch of people call, make it $100 to go, then pot the flop.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

"If a bunch of people call, make it $100 to go, then pot the flop."

2 people called. is that a bunch?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

jesus - every hand you post, you push. settle down.

bet 3/4 pot and see what they do. or you can check it if you want to and see what they do. This isn't that drawy a board, but if you really fear the flush, bet full pot.

you have to understand the concept that with bets like this you're only getting called by a better hand right?

the only way this is good is if they think you have ak and will call w any pair, but there are easier edges to exploit in these types of games.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If a bunch of people call, make it $100 to go, then pot the flop."

2 people called. is that a bunch?

[/ QUOTE ]
2 people is not a bunch lol. Be more clear....and just make a pot raise, seems easy enough. 50 is a little less than pot.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

"you have to understand the concept that with bets like this you're only getting called by a better hand right?"

no. they will call with a lot of pocket pairs.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

maybe you missed this:

"the only way this is good is if they think you have ak and will call w any pair"

so they're complete morons, fine. then what's the question?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

[ QUOTE ]
utg+1 raises to just $10, a bunch of people call, i make it $50 more to go, utg+1 and the button call.

[/ QUOTE ]
how many is a bunch? i think when you said 2 called you were saying how many called your raise of 50 more, but the question was referring to how many called the initial 10. if the answer is more than 2, then raise more preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
5-5 500 max mediocre live game

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[ QUOTE ]
"you have to understand the concept that with bets like this you're only getting called by a better hand right?"

no. they will call with a lot of pocket pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]
you open-push 440 into a pot of about 200, and they'll call with a lot of pocket pairs? sounds better than a mediocre game to me.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

let's start over. i think pushing might not be the optimal play but at the same time im not folding AA agaisnt these clowns. and they may not call the flop with something like 99 or 88.

so if im not folding should i be pushing? i dont want to give a free card.. maybe pushing was fine.

preflop: since i had AA i figured i didnt mind something like 1 or 2 callers. with QQ i wouldve just tried to blow everyone out by raising $120 more or something.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

What free card are you worried about? This is a way ahead or way behind situation. If they have a ten, you are going broke.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

how would you play the hand, starting from preflop. what factors would you take into accountin making your decisions? please be specific.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

just some thoughts....

raise more pf, 100 is good. Pot the flop, call a raise. If you get a caller push the turn. If they have a 10 you are getting broke this hand. Tom is smart.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

[ QUOTE ]
how would you play the hand, starting from preflop. what factors would you take into accountin making your decisions? please be specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the re-raise to $50, since it seems to have acomplished what you wanted. AA is hard to play out of position in a multiway pot, so my raise of $50 is designed to shrink the field and hopefully get you heads-up w/ the original raiser. Maybe if you're lucky he'll even re-raise with AK, KK, or QQ. However, I've played in 5-5 games where that raise could be $25 and accomplish the same thing. I've also played in games where it would have needed to be $75-$150. So that's entirely dependent on the game, but if you're raising for the reason I think you're raising, then I like it.

So now we're to the flop. The pot is something like $180-$200. Since they called your re-raise, we most likely eliminate AT, JT, QT, or KT from their possible hands. KK-88 is likely as is AK, AQ, or maybe AJ from a really loose player. I'd bet 2/3rds of the pot to give anyone chasing a flush draw impoper odds to call. That is also a good value bet for extracting money from someone with a big pocket pair.

I can see an argument for a push if some people on the table think you're a LAG. In my mind, you're representing AK/AQ of spades with that push. They will likely call with KK-JJ.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

It does not make sense to raise more w/ QQ than with AA.

If anything I'd do the opposite, because I want to get as much money in preflop w/ AA, whereas w/ QQ the flop is quite important. Also, AA is harder to fold postflop, so you want to give worse implied odds to potential callers.

There are times to "blow people out" preflop, but your hand doesn't matter that much when you do it, because your obective is to get everyone to fold, right?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

with QQ id obviously be hoping someone calls with something i beat, but if i happen to push everyone out im not gonna be bummed. with AA if i reraise too much preflop then everyone might fold and i definitely would be bummed. see?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

50 is fine preflop, 3/4 pot the flop, push the turn. If some1 c/rs the flop puke on the table(and call).

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

with two opponents and a possible flushdraw + gutshot is this really way ahead way behind? they might have as much as 14 outs together

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

given the way you have described your opponents it sounds like they can have enough hands that you arent folding for the amount of money in play so thats one aspect you dont have to consider anymore. given that your not folding the thing to think about is structuring the betting in such a way that the broadest range of hands you want to play against can put in the largest amount of money. pushing is probably not the answer to this. what range of hands do you think a push is better against than a pottish sized bet?

the decision i think you have on the flop is between checking and betting somewhere between 70-100% of the pot or so.

i think your pre-flop raise here was about right, something between 50-70 pre-flop seems correct to me. i dont understand why some people want to raise more than 70 or so, that just seems like a waste.

i think your proposed 120 raise with QQ is real bad. what range of hands are you expecting to call that raise? if your not expecting much of anything to call it then why would you want to turn your very strong hand into a virtual bluff? if everyone folds the fact that you had QQ and actually had them beat isnt really worth anything. if a 120 raise is actually getting called by a decent range of hands then ill probably retract my statement about a bigger raise with AA being bad.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

at last a good well thought out post! thanks!

anyway let me go through this one question at a time:

"given the way you have described your opponents it sounds like they can have enough hands that you arent folding for the amount of money in play so thats one aspect you dont have to consider anymore."

right. see i didnt realise that at the time though, i didnt think about it. the main thing i felt was fear: as in, i really want to win this pot, i would like to get doubled up, but im scared one of them has a T or will catch up, i dont want to lose this pot fear fear FEAR! that's where i screwed up.

because if i had assessed the flop and the situation i wouldve realised okay given my stack size and my hand and what they think of me im committed here to putting all my chips in. a $150 bet wouldve priced them in all wrong with anything they hold that i beat and if they pushed i could just call and let them show me their KTs or JJ or whatever they got.

now about the QQ i think a $120 raise was an exaggeration on my part. i might bet $80 or $90 because there's some money in the pot (about $50) already and some of them are dumb enough to call that amount with AJ, KQ, etc.

again nice post you layed it all out pretty nicely.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

[ QUOTE ]
the main thing i felt was fear: as in, i really want to win this pot, i would like to get doubled up, but im scared one of them has a T or will catch up, i dont want to lose this pot fear fear FEAR! that's where i screwed up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you really afraid someone has a T?
And if so, why then are you putting all your money in?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

hes telling us he couldnt really think straight.
because of fear.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

"see i dont know how to play no limit yet."

Do you think that one day you are going to wake up and look in the mirror and say to yourself, "Today, finally, I know how to play no-limit. Yesterday I didn't, but today I do. Cool."

Or maybe you think it will happen at the table, as you think to yourself, "Right before I just caught that flush on the river and doubled up for the fourth time tonight and broke the whole game and sent all these saps home crying, I did not know how to play no-limit. But now I do. Cool."

There's no knowing how mike. There's just doing now.

And yes you are a vat of fear just like most mammals. It's too bad that some of the best lines lose their punch just by being so good that they get repeated so often that they lose their punch. The one I have in mind is, "There's nothing to fear but fear itself."

So, so true, especially with pocket aces.

Tommy

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

"Or maybe you think it will happen at the table, as you think to yourself, "Right before I just caught that flush on the river and doubled up for the fourth time tonight and broke the whole game and sent all these saps home crying, I did not know how to play no-limit. But now I do. Cool."

no ive done that before a few times and i thought wow, i sure got lucky my hands held up and i was able to get all my money in preflop or on the flop against such dogs.

im still scared of big bet poker even when it's really little bet poker. i can sit there and eat a plate of pad thai at commerce and casually drop $5000 playing like turd in a limit game, but give me a good hand in a baby nl game and im just shaking in my boots looking for the first opportunity to push all my chips in so i dont have to make anymore decisions.

maybe it's the embarassment of calling when i have the worst hand for all my chips. im okay with pushing and then getting called with the nuts, but im too scared of checking and calling with second best for all the chips.

anyway all that aside what do you think of the way i played it preflop and on the flop? what wouldve been a better route?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

Raise to at least 80 to go PF. Then lead out pot sized to the flop. I doubt anyone has a 10 unless they have quads. But your pf raise was terrible.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

"your pf raise was terrible."

others said it was fine. can you go into detail?

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

I like raising more pre flop with a lot of limpers. I look at this hand as having 2 $5 blinds and 1 $10 blind and a lot of limpers. So I would go to my standard (on line standard, that is) of 3BB + 1BB per limper. I'm not thrilled with this simple formula, but I find myself using it and it is fine at the limits I play. Live, you probably should have a higher standard raise, but I never play live so I am not real sure of that oppinion.

Why I like raising more pre flop is this:
With that many limpers and your image you will get called somewhere most likely.
No hands is getting odds to call you, whereas with your raise, anyone who knows you will stack off with an overpair is getting from close to correct to easily correct odds to call you with smaller pairs.
Your post flop decisions are much easier, and you are more likely to get paid off since the pot will be giving better odds.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

Hi mike,

cwl's post makes good sense here. I'm coming to this thread late, but I want to add some stuff:

Pre-flop, you should reraise pot, or somewhat more, if you think one of the callers will be willing to call a bit more. You raised exactly the pot (your call put $50 in there, you raised $50 more), so that was good. You got 2 callers whose hand ranges are wide given what they think of you, so that's mildly scary, but you do have AA and not too deep of a stack, so you're fine.

The flop was a pretty good one for you, since most players' calling ranges of your pre-flop raise are skewed toward pocket pairs; obviously, pairs have 2 outs if they're behind. However, given that their ranges are a bit wider, we have to concede that one of them could've called with a suited Broadway T (or maybe T9s); presumably, this is all you were worried about. Still, you said that you were willing to get it all-in against these guys. Once you've made up your mind about that, this hand is very easy to play, I think. You just make bets that draws are wrong to call, and get it all in at the next opportunity if anyone raises or calls. Meaning, you 3/4 pot the flop, which leaves you with 300 more and about 500 in the pot if anyone comes along--easy push.

The fear thing is noted, but must be dropped, of course. One thing that separates good NL players from weaker ones is that they're not afraid to let a card slide off with a "vulnerable" hand, when their reads tell them that their opponents are probably drawing very slim (as with a pocket pair on this board), despite the drawing possiblilities on the flop. I'm not talking about slowplaying, exactly: I'm talking about not overbetting your strong hands in a manner that ensures you don't get the loose action you want. This is exactly what your all-in on the flop accomplished, IMO: you will only get called by hands that beat you, and by a few good pocket pairs that would've played anyway for smaller bets. But most importantly, you miss out on action from small pairs, or other hands that would move in on you as a bluff or semi-bluff, if you only gave them the chance. Remember, you were willing to get it all in; let them think they can put you to a decision.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

"anyway all that aside what do you think of the way i played it preflop"

I think you raised exactly the wrong amount. If you were trying to give out the perfectly wrong odds to all the wrong people, who could not have picked a worse number.

(Translation, raise 1/4 - 1/3 your stack. It you get one caller, now your all-in bet on the flop is the size of the pot. He can never be getting right odds to draw to anything, before or on the flop. And this way you'll feel good while it's happening because you'll be be doing your (apparent) overbet because of fear thing.)

Tommy

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

How I play this is totally dependent on my opponents. Against some, a push is appropriate. Against others, betting pot may be better, and others, betting small to induce a raise may even be the best play. Even a check with an all-in checkraise is not terrible against the right opponents.

I'll push if they will regularly call me with worse hands.

I'll checkraise if they tend to bet with nothing if I show weakness. I may even check call and check-rasie a non flush turn.

Against the super-aggressive opponents, a weak-lead may get the most from your opponents.

This hand is a lot easier to play with a loose image, since you will get called by a lot of really bad hands. I tend to play pretty LAG, so a weak-lead may be my favorite play.

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

this made me giggle
given your description i would checkraise allin if i were you

Re: see mike push. push mike, push
 

[ QUOTE ]
"see i dont know how to play no limit yet."

no. do. or do not. there is no try.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP