Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

Playing 25-50 9-handed. I call raiser with JJ. Flop QJ3 two hearts. PFR pots it. I raise $1100 with $1400 left behind. Don't sweat the small raise - opponent is a supposedly world-class pro and knows he has to go all in or fold there. He goes all in. My hand holds up against his Th9h monster draw.

General point: On a draw-heavy board you should raise big.

Everyone thinks you have to raise to make the draws pay/commit. I raise because so many cards kill my action. Both are right. I much prefer live play, usually have position, and sometimes know when my opponents hit, and so am biased towards the latter.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
On a draw-heavy board you should raise big.

[/ QUOTE ]holy [censored], no way!

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

Go easy Cap'n. Spelling that out - simple as it is - is going to save a lot of 2+2ers who will lurk this thread a lot of money.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing 25-50 9-handed. I call raiser with JJ. Flop QJ3 two hearts. PFR pots it. I raise $1100 with $1400 left behind. Don't sweat the small raise - opponent is a supposedly world-class pro and knows he has to go all in or fold there. He goes all in. My hand holds up against his Th9h monster draw.

General point: On a draw-heavy board you should raise big.

Everyone thinks you have to raise to make the draws pay/commit. I raise because so many cards kill my action. Both are right. I much prefer live play, usually have position, and sometimes know when my opponents hit, and so am biased towards the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

your example is totally different then the hand discussed in the diablo thread.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

nice play sir.

but let me present the counter arguement.

i flop a set on a draw heavy board, get bet into and just call...then on the turn when it bricks off get bet into again and get a guy to call my huge raise on the turn because as he said as he's calling my all-in (with one to come) well i know you don't have a set or you would have raised the flop.

all i'm saying is that it can never be correct to play specific hands the same way all the time.
at least if you plan on playing against observant opponents with deep stacks.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

and yet another example of a non-traditional play which maximized my win.

i'm in the BB w/99.
playing 20-40 with ~15K.

five or six limpers, SB makes it $200 straight.
i call, limpers call.

flop A-9-3 two clubs.

SB bets pot, i smoothcall, button raises to ~3K(SB has ~8K button has me covered) SB goes all-in i go all-in and button makes a bad call w/bottom set.
SB has AQ no clubs.

now you can fault both the SB and the BB but the SB put me on a flush draw because i just called w/so many players left to act and the button was an uber-aggressive player so he wanted to shut me out and get heads up w/ the button.

now if he bets i raise, and now the button re-raises he's dumping that AQ in two seconds flat. he said he just couldn't put me on a set because i didn't raise to protect my hand.

point is i took a gamble that if the turn blanked off the SB was going to make a pot-committing bet because he would put me on the flush draw.

now, let me say that a lot of the time i raise the flop w/a set...but its a real good thing to be able to vary your lines so that your opponents can't easily put you on a hand.

i don't play at all online so i don't know if this is as necessary there, but i know that when you play high limit live its crucial because you play with the same people so often, and they are paying attention.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
and yet another example of a non-traditional play which maximized my win.

i'm in the BB w/99.
playing 20-40 with ~15K.

five or six limpers, SB makes it $200 straight.
i call, limpers call.

flop A-9-3 two clubs.

SB bets pot, i smoothcall, button raises to ~3K(SB has ~8K button has me covered) SB goes all-in i go all-in and button makes a bad call w/bottom set.
SB has AQ no clubs.

now you can fault both the SB and the BB but the SB put me on a flush draw because i just called w/so many players left to act and the button was an uber-aggressive player so he wanted to shut me out and get heads up w/ the button.

now if he bets i raise, and now the button re-raises he's dumping that AQ in two seconds flat. he said he just couldn't put me on a set because i didn't raise to protect my hand.

point is i took a gamble that if the turn blanked off the SB was going to make a pot-committing bet because he would put me on the flush draw.

now, let me say that a lot of the time i raise the flop w/a set...but its a real good thing to be able to vary your lines so that your opponents can't easily put you on a hand.

i don't play at all online so i don't know if this is as necessary there, but i know that when you play high limit live its crucial because you play with the same people so often, and they are paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

If SB put you on a flush draw, what did he put other guy on? This sounds like a situations where the guy was going broke no matter what b/c he's an idiot. 6 to the flop in a raised pot, AQ with an A usually not good for 200 bb's.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
If SB put you on a flush draw, what did he put other guy on? This sounds like a situations where the guy was going broke no matter what b/c he's an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

it would help if you read the post before responding.
as i said in the post the button was a very aggressive player who will raise in that spot with a wide range of hands including a weaker ace.
which is why he wanted to get me out and get heads up w/the button.

and the SB in question is actually a very good player.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If SB put you on a flush draw, what did he put other guy on? This sounds like a situations where the guy was going broke no matter what b/c he's an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

it would help if you read the post before responding.
as i said in the post the button was a very aggressive player who will raise in that spot with a wide range of hands including a weaker ace.
which is why he wanted to get me out and get heads up w/the button.

and the SB in question is actually a very good player.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I'll just stop posting altogether to save myself from any future embarassment [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'll just stop posting altogether to save myself from any future embarassment

[/ QUOTE ]

don't do that.
but let me put this whole arguement to rest.

i am in no way arguing against playing sets fast on the flop i was just posting an alternative line to be used on occassion in order to improve one's overall game.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
don't do that.
but let me put this whole arguement to rest.

i am in no way arguing against playing sets fast on the flop i was just posting an alternative line to be used on occassion in order to improve one's overall game.

[/ QUOTE ]Let me follow that up with a question. When do you the best time is to not raise the flop with a set. Did you not raise this flop in particular because you the button might make a play at the pot? Or is this the kind of thing you advocate mostly for shania purposes?

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

Does the prf really have to push or fold here given his 12 outs? Does the set fold to a push on the turn whether it's an 8, K, or (non-boat-making) heart? If so, are non-heart A's not a bluff card for the prf? Could the set put pfr on KTs raising preflop?

If the turn comes K or 8 non-heart especially and pfr checks doesn't he get all the money in by river one way or the other-excluding boat making card of course?

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me follow that up with a question. When do you the best time is to not raise the flop with a set. Did you not raise this flop in particular because you the button might make a play at the pot? Or is this the kind of thing you advocate mostly for shania purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all i have no idea what "shania" is.
second of all i don't have a formula for when to raise or not...game dynamics is the determining factor.

however the important point is that you try and incorporate different strategies into your game in order to make your play less predicatable.

like i said if you play with shallow stacks...or online with many different players its less important.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me follow that up with a question. When do you the best time is to not raise the flop with a set. Did you not raise this flop in particular because you the button might make a play at the pot? Or is this the kind of thing you advocate mostly for shania purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all i have no idea what "shania" is.
second of all i don't have a formula for when to raise or not...game dynamics is the determining factor.

however the important point is that you try and incorporate different strategies into your game in order to make your play less predicatable.

like i said if you play with shallow stacks...or online with many different players its less important.

[/ QUOTE ]

someone link him with srendi already.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't play at all online so i don't know if this is as necessary there, but i know that when you play high limit live its crucial because you play with the same people so often, and they are paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against all the randoms who pop in and out of the games, not necessary. Against the stronger regulars (a small group), it's important to mix things up.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
first of all i have no idea what "shania" is.

[/ QUOTE ] linky

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

rbk knows what Shania is, it's part of everything that he's talking about (and everything worth talking about in real big-bet poker).....he just doesn't use the freakin' nerd-ass 2+2 term....maybe next someone else can educate us all about "the Gap Theory" or the "Inflection Point" or some other poker concept that NOBODY in the history of poker would know anything about if it weren't for the geniuses at 2+2.....

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first of all i have no idea what "shania" is.

[/ QUOTE ] linky

[/ QUOTE ]

I read that and I still have no idea! Not for my simple mind I guess.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
rbk knows what Shania is, it's part of everything that he's talking about (and everything worth talking about in real big-bet poker).....he just doesn't use the freakin' nerd-ass 2+2 term....

[/ QUOTE ]

I am with you 100%. If I read one more post where someone (read: Strasser) personifies "Shania" and talks about some stupid [censored] like "pleasuring her" when referring to meta-game considerations, I think I'm going to flip out.

ML4L

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

RBK, not to clutter the boards, but just wanted to say appreciate your posts. Sometimes it seems like posters believe they have the "absolutely correct" play, but don't realize the shades of gray that can really bring somebody's game to the next level.

On a similar note, I find checking in a heads up pot, after hitting trips on the turn, frequently leads to a call on the river by an underpair who can't understand why I wouldn't have bet my trips on the turn. I know, not genius, but just a play that works.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
your example is totally different then the hand discussed in the diablo thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

no relation intended between the threads.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

indeed. if opponent is a routine stacker-offer with shite, then there is a good argument to some-of-the-time flat call and hope one of the 24 or 27 cards that might kill your action don't come off. we all do it, but it's like riding a moped/se with a fat chick/etc.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

So how do you play this when you both have 10k+ (other than reraise pre?)

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

I dont hate this play, but I would like it better if the pre-flop raiser was the button...then you smooth call the SB hoping the button repops with AK or something like that.

I have a hard time thinking that you will trap many hands here given that the button did not raise (even tho you did here)

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't play at all online so i don't know if this is as necessary there, but i know that when you play high limit live its crucial because you play with the same people so often, and they are paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

live the penalty for giving free cards is lower because you can much more easily read your way out of trouble. so you "pay" less for your trickiness and hence can enjoy being tricky more often. live rules, except when you are trying to make money.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does the prf really have to push or fold here given his 12 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

he has 15. definitely a push for him. if he just calls and hits, he may not get action on the turn. if he just calls and misses, he will call the all in if he checks and thus should bet, putting money in as much less a favorite. which reason you think is more important nicely dovetails back to my original point. i will now drink my coffee with my pinkie extended while someone barks about what if the turn is checked through, which is uncommon enough in this game that planning on it does not make sense to me with remaining stacks that small.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
So how do you play this when you both have 10k+ (other than reraise pre?)

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you reraise pf?

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

I have a couple more questions:
If pfr makes a mistake and just calls and
1) turn comes non heart A, K, or 8 and pfr pushes does set always fold, sometimes fold, never fold?
2) turn pairs board and pfr checks does set(now boat) also check(to give a chance for pfr to make a flush) giving pfr a free draw to 2 outs to str8 flush?

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

I don't know, from my experience in live games with big stacks the first raise doesn't mean much, really just two cards the person would like to play. A reraise is a little better, I have a hand better than average, and a 3bet is I have a very good hand. So I feel like you have to raise with 10k+ stacks to sort of help get a bearing on what your opponent has...no?

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, from my experience in live games with big stacks the first raise doesn't mean much, really just two cards the person would like to play. A reraise is a little better, I have a hand better than average, and a 3bet is I have a very good hand. So I feel like you have to raise with 10k+ stacks to sort of help get a bearing on what your opponent has...no?

[/ QUOTE ]

its much more likely that your opponent gets a bearing on you, than the other way around.

unless you are also 3betting 22/67s/AQs and such, you will get pegged when playing deep and predictable.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

ok, just ran some more numbers at cardplayer and see that the pfr is always a fold here if he knows he's against a set so pushing is only good against a (semi)bluff or single pair or 2 pair.

Also, just calling is always wrong against a set imo even if it's to the str8 flush and even if he has 3 bluff cards in the non-heart A's if set will always fold to an A, K, or 8 on turn. It's a bit close though, assuming he has to call 1100 to win 1700(the hand details were not layed out as this was not the focus of the op).

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a couple more questions:
If pfr makes a mistake and just calls and
1) turn comes non heart A, K, or 8 and pfr pushes does set always fold, sometimes fold, never fold?
2) turn pairs board and pfr checks does set(now boat) also check(to give a chance for pfr to make a flush) giving pfr a free draw to 2 outs to str8 flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Set never folds getting around 3.2:1 b/c even if PFR has the straight it's a 3.4:1 draw.

2. I/set/boat would typically not check as betting usually gets the short remaining money in anyways. Less chance of commitment failure imo, but that is just imo.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless you are also 3betting 22/67s/AQs and such, you will get pegged when playing deep and predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

aren't you doing this too? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

The hand can be played either way. For reasons specific to this night, I was playing as if on short money.

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

Thanks for your help Matt. I know the point of your post was playing from the set perspective - one can't just assume he's against a str8 flush draw.

But from the str8 flush draw perspective if set wont fold to potential str8 on turn he wont fold to potentail flush either, right? Doesn't this mean that the draw should always call and never fold and never push?

If the draw is actually against pocket A's or K's instead of a set then I think it's better to push for fold value while draw is in a slight lead.

At this point, maybe the draw figures he's up against,
a set 47% of the time
over pair, tptk 47% of the time (fold value for pushing)
a semibluff 6% of the time (fold value here too maybe).
If this is even approximately accurate do we come back to the draw pushing every time?

thanks

Re: Brief thought on big hands on draw-heavy boards
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am with you 100%. If I read one more post where someone (read: Strasser) personifies "Shania" and talks about some stupid [censored] like "pleasuring her" when referring to meta-game considerations, I think I'm going to flip out.
ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm glad it isn't just me.