Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

By cutting rake in half, maybe on Noble poker. I know they are part of a network and it would be complicated but this is the time for the network to make a move. Cut rake in half on the Noble network. Then build an advertising campain based on this half rake premise, and see if you can draw people in.

Things are never gonna be the same for you empire. You can accept that and try and scrape whatever is left out or you can make a move and see what happens. You still can communitate with tens of thousands of players .. soon to be ex-players on your site. Send every one of them an e-mail saying Noble has cut the rake in half and you might have a chance to build something.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

No doubt this is on the table as this is why they have Nobel.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

psychology speaking, i would rather get my $2000 directly into my account, than knowing i have a discount while playing. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] don't you think?

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Some random observations:
1. Party became one of the huge poker sites because of the number of fish that played at all levels.
2. Party stategy seems to be based on the premise that we got the fish so the destroy the rest of the network and get the sharks to pay us their rake instead of a skin.
3. Party has a large pool of fish even with one of the highest rakes of online poker.

Conclusion: lowering rake won't draw fish into a network just mainly multitabling fish devouring sharks. To get fish it looks like you have to advertise, have some bonuses, value added or guaranteed prize pool tournements and some kind of promotional benefit that looks good to long-term losing fish that doesn't cost too much. If Empire is going to try recover and become what the Party Poker network used to be they will need to suck in tons and tons of fish. Just shipping over their current stock of high volume players and adding some more via a rake cut doesn't look to really help them much. To try to out Party Party they might end up pushing the Empire Poker network hard and then eventually increase the rake to cover the increased costs.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Yep, advertising "we have the lowest rake!" is not gonna bring in the fish at all. Their response will be, "So when I win a $50 pot, instead of having $3 taken out, $2 will be taken out... who cares!"

The fish like freerolls and bonuses and such.

The one thing that might get their attention would be automatic rakeback. "Play x number of hands per month at x level, and we give you $100 a month whether you win or lose!"

$100 bonus, $100 a month (or $1000, or whatever, depending on stakes played), that is what fish notice. $1 per pot rake difference, why, that's nothing!

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some random observations:
1. Party became one of the huge poker sites because of the number of fish that played at all levels.
2. Party stategy seems to be based on the premise that we got the fish so the destroy the rest of the network and get the sharks to pay us their rake instead of a skin.
3. Party has a large pool of fish even with one of the highest rakes of online poker.

Conclusion: lowering rake won't draw fish into a network just mainly multitabling fish devouring sharks. To get fish it looks like you have to advertise, have some bonuses, value added or guaranteed prize pool tournements and some kind of promotional benefit that looks good to long-term losing fish that doesn't cost too much. If Empire is going to try recover and become what the Party Poker network used to be they will need to suck in tons and tons of fish. Just shipping over their current stock of high volume players and adding some more via a rake cut doesn't look to really help them much. To try to out Party Party they might end up pushing the Empire Poker network hard and then eventually increase the rake to cover the increased costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soo your answer is to sit back, do nothing and let empire poker die instead of making a move while things are still up in the air? Pure genius. Sitting back and comparing empire to a different company that was part of its past instead of looking to the future. You have a brilliant career as a leader of a progressive industry in your near future.

How do you know that empire cant carve out a niche by offering half the rake of other sites? As far as I know this has never been done by a major poker room. Combine this with an advertising campain that touts 50% rake compared to the other sites and maybe something will happen. I am not saying it will work, I have no clue if it will work. But I do know now is the time to try such a thing, if they ever want to be a major player again. Or you can sit back and compare empire to party and think about the old days.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Mr. Fish who has been watching Celebrity Poker Showdown and the World Poker Tour decides he wants to play poker online. He sees the new 50% empire rake ad and says, "Huh, what's rake?"

Then he sees an ad elsewhere offering "$100 SIGNUP BONUS" for partypoker, remembers those partypoker tv commercials that amused him, and goes and signs up.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
What matters is what Empire thinks.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, advertising "we have the lowest rake!" is not gonna bring in the fish at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to work pretty well in almost every industry I can think of. Of course I play the extra 50% on my car insurance just because I get to meet the people in the office and get free lollypops. And yes I would rather pay triple the price of a motel 6 just for the hell of it. Has this ever been tried by a major poker room?

Maybe the half rake is not the answer, I dont know. Maybe the 100$ a month win or lose is a better one. My point is that a move needs to be made, what the right move is I dont know, just offering up a suggestion.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Fish who has been watching Celebrity Poker Showdown and the World Poker Tour decides he wants to play poker online. He sees the new 50% empire rake ad and says, "Huh, what's rake?"

Then he sees an ad elsewhere offering "$100 SIGNUP BONUS" for partypoker, remembers those partypoker tv commercials that amused him, and goes and signs up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know the kind of people you play against. The people I play against know what rake is, know this is how the poker room makes money, and know what "half the rake of other major poker rooms" is. They also know how to pick their nose and can walk while they are chewing gum. Maybe we are around different kinds of people?

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Maybe you don't understand Party's customer base.
What is the name of your online poker site?

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you don't understand Party's customer base.
What is the name of your online poker site?

[/ QUOTE ]

Discounted services has worked in every major industry in the world. I named car insurance and motels, but this applies to every major industry. If you think people are so dumb they dont understand what "half the cost of other major poker rooms" is then well I think you underestimate people. Everyone is looking for a deal. This includes smart people, dumb people, fish, sharks and my 5 year old. Discounted services has never been tried by a major poker room... yet everyone seems to know it will not work... just like it has not worked for discounted stock broker services, dollar stores, or millions of other businesses. Yes cutting the rake without advertising is nothing but if they advertise in big letters that they take half the money from you that the other poker roooms do well I am not so sure they would not pull in business. Of course it is much better for empire to pack their bags instead of trying something new.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

No.

zerorake.com

you are wrong.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
No.

zerorake.com

you are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Major poker room. Just because discounted car insurance did not work for some guy sitting in his basement by his phone does not mean it would not work for a company that has an established client base, sound business plan, and has the money to advertise.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

What is the name of your online poker site again?

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the name of your online poker site again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever just let it die. You are right, no chance for it to work. And you are wayyy smarter than the average person, who cant decipher what half is.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Can Empire or skins even set what the rake is? I thought that was a Party only decision. If only Party can change the rake, could it boost the rake on the skin network without the skins' approval?

WiteKnite

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can Empire or skins even set what the rake is? I thought that was a Party only decision. If only Party can change the rake, could it boost the rake on the skin network without the skins' approval?

WiteKnite

[/ QUOTE ]

I am talking about Noble poker. Empire bought it a while back. Yes it is on a network and this would be complicated but the network is small and it might be able to be done. It wont be able to be done for Empire itself obviously.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Half? Try zero. I think it has been shown that % of rake is a very small factor of why people choose to play at a particular site.

Automobiles get you from point A to point B. That is their entire function. Yet, people go out and spend way more for a Lexus, when a Honda will do the same thing. In fact, they will buy the newest model Lexus right when it first comes out, knowing that it will probably be cheaper in 6 months.

Think those people are going to gamble at one site over another because of 2.5% less rake? Or will flashy comercials and the ability to make side bets have a bigger sway over their choice?

What was the name of your site? I'm interested in that half rake deal.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
Half? Try zero. I think it has been shown that % of rake is a very small factor of why people choose to play at a particular site.

Automobiles get you from point A to point B. That is their entire function. Yet, people go out and spend way more for a Lexus, when a Honda will do the same thing. In fact, they will buy the newest model Lexus right when it first comes out, knowing that it will probably be cheaper in 6 months.

Think those people are going to gamble at one site over another because of 2.5% less rake? Or will flashy comercials and the ability to make side bets have a bigger sway over their choice?

What was the name of your site? I'm interested in that half rake deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right, let it die, no need to ever try something new. A car is a status symbol, where you play on-line poker is not something the whole block is gonna see... but whatever you are right. And these same people that are gonna spend their money on an expensive car will fight tooth and nail to get the best price on it.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

I think Empire should make a move also. Their site has been based on a high rake fish filled enviroment and they seem to be sucessful in it. Trying to switch to a low rake, low expenses enviroment with game filled full of tight players like UB, FT, and PS seems kind of desperate. After all instead of competing with Party for fish they will compete with the likes of PS that currently has low end rake, great software, and good CS. The one thing PS lacks is lots of fish, that is why I play on bad, buggy interfaces with Aboo the CS guy from India who responds with form letters. I also get a bonus to play on Party and that keeps me coming back again and again. What I am suggesting is that to competely change strategies to compete with great sites and great software is likely poor. By changing the Noble poker network into a heavily advertised network with bonuses and promotions you can draw in the fish and compete with a site that has bad CS, and buggy software which will make you look good in comparison even with significant flaws. Not to mention your current clients like that enviroment and you can even up the rake later after establishing the network. This rake increase will cover the significant advertising costs, promotional cost, and software development costs that get incurred during the early period where you are fighting it out for players with Party. To try to fight an established site like PS with the battle cry of low rake would be uphill and to win would have have to heavily promote the network which would kill their profit with the halved rake.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

Why do people have fire engine red Porsches? It isn't as if you can go more than 75mphs anyway and even a crappy 95 Toyota hatchback can do that. Yet people pay 5X the cost and their insurance premiums are incredible. Kind of stupid isn't it for something that won't get you to your destination any faster. Now lets say we offer people with fire engine red Porsches FREE 95 Toyota hatchbacks with half price insurance as long as they sell their Porsches and have to drive their new boring car, how many would take the deal? IMO fish think of rake in this way, just another marginal cost of playing clearly losing poker for enjoyment. After all the fish isn't planning ahead wondering about the EV of playing at this site versus that site. Convenience is more significant than price to many reasonable people in the world. Many just want a site where they can always find a decent game at their limt without waiting long and are willing to ignore the fact that they will pay an extra 10 or 20 bucks in rake over the course of a hour. After all if the fish was worried about 10 or 20 bucks wouldn't he either improve or move down till he could win instead of playing like a donkey? The people who would change their play location to a site with low rake, few promotions, and low numbers of fish are sharks. Some people do well in a TAG enviroment, they are welcome to play on Absolute to their heart content : ). Me, I like playing with people who are a bit clueless and am willing to pay a bit extra in rake to do so. There is nothing quite a stud game where you tell the other player I can beat their Q high flush 5 times on the river and they keep raising until you get worried about a submarine FH or a hand that can beat your AK flush and call.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

You need to understand that the customer base of party either doesn't know/care about the rake. That's the truth, bottom line. Period.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

The midlimit games are still good. Empire isnt dying. Get over it.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need to understand that the customer base of party either doesn't know/care about the rake. That's the truth, bottom line. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well put. Most recreational players are there to have fun. Many don't even know what rake is, and those that do don't really think it affects anything in the long run. The consumer is not informed. That is not being mean, or demeaning, just realisitic.

I will be the first to jump to the defense of the recreational player. It always sounds little like nails on a chalkboard when people refer to them in a dismissive and derogatory manner, using terms like "fish" and "donkey" over and over. Most of them are decent, hard working people who play poker for fun and like the action -- they certainly aren't bad people, or stupid. They just aren't any damn good at poker, and they don't know anything about it.

They aren't looking for the best "deal", they are looking for the best time. Yes they are looking for a product, but it's not based on anything to do with money. Their motivations are different.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

I whole heartedly agree about not calling people fish and donkey at the table. That is strictly negative EV because you're spoiling the experience for the "action" player who giving you money to enjoy playing poker. If they suck out on you it pays to just grit your teeth if you can't say nh. However after having AAx beaten 4 out of 5 times at stud and getting 333 run down by 677 who had to call 4 bets on 4th street is kind of aggravating and the way I stay sane is thinking "fish fish fish" and that comes out in these posts.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

[ QUOTE ]

Discounted services has worked in every major industry in the world. I named car insurance and motels, but this applies to every major industry

[/ QUOTE ]


I've mentioned this before but I'll bring it up again (because I'm a repetitive kind of guy).

Poker is different from all those other industries in a VERY important way.
In most normal industries (gas prices, groceries, airline fare, etc etc) the consumer IMMEDIATELY can see the difference in price.

If I want to fly to NY and see that one airline is charging $250 while another is charging $350 then I can IMMEDIATELY see how much I save.


In poker...the typical customer (re: fish) knows absolutely nothing about the difference and doesn't care.
You can even spell it out for him and explain how much he would save if only they just took $1 less out of each pot.
You can give him EXACT figures.
He will say "whatever. I don't care. It's only a dollar. It's not a big deal."


THEN....you can give him a $100 bonus and he'll say "whoopeee!!!!!! This is great!!!!!"



Anybody who has played with fish should be able to understand that the fish just don't freaking care...and that most can't even be taught to care.


This is why I have always argued against those who have said that the increasing competition for customers would help drive the rake down....and it's why Empire would NOT be better off lowering the rake.

I wouldn't complain if they did of course.
But if they cut their rake in half there is just NO WAY that they will make up for it by doubling their player-base.


Naturally, I wouldn't argue with them if this is the course of action they wanted to take.
But for THEM to succeed I don't think this is their best course.


Then again, these are the same geniuses that came up with the VIP-points system (with that whle square-root nonsense that actually DISCOURAGES you from playing more on a given day) as well as banning players without warning that they could have kept around if they had more clearly defined what they wanted out of their players who pursue the bonuses that THEY are offering.

So Empire has proven to be pretty freaking stupid in the past.
So lowering rake, raising rake, offering an Empire embroidered tutu or giving away crappo money-clips in the mail are ALL equally possible from these geniuses.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

To solve the dilemma party had with all the high end players playing on the skins, they took the fish away.

Now we are going to market Empire to the fish by telling them the rake is cheaper? Wont work (like has been said)

The solution for Empire is to BECOME Party. Become the flagship skin and advertise like a mofo. Fish like advertising, rake whatever you want, but they like cool TV ads.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

You make some good points, Bob.

Also, I don't care how much Empire reduces the rake or continues rakeback, there's just no way to offset the extra BB's/100 expectation of playing on much softer tables at Party. The problem that Empire faces in trying to keep their base is almost impossible. The vast majority of players on there are much more skilled than the Party players. Making an extra 0.5 BB/100 with rakeback or lower rake on Empire doesn't even come close to offsetting that.

Re: Anyone else think empire should make a move
 

If you go to the Vegas strip, you can find some very bad rake structures out there. These card rooms are just as full as ones with better rake structure. Same with a Blackjack game. Minor rule changes increase the casino profit by a few % and the average player doesn't notice. Don't decrease rake, increase rakeback. It will have the same effect as a tax return at the end of the year. Make it automatic and advertise it as cashback for playing every month.