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-   -   How I Became a Christian (LONG) (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=353732)

Jeff V 10-09-2005 05:51 AM

How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
How I Became a Christian


I’m not trying to convert anyone but this is how I came to belief. If it makes someone think about God a little different- all the better. I do have some questions at the end also.

I was raised catholic, never really took it too seriously (neither did my mom) so religion/church was something to think about on Sunday for 45 minutes and that was pretty much it. I started having a problem with authority figures when I was young, and when I turned 18ish God became one of those figures. I felt emptiness, alone, and like life really had no meaning. I had all the normal questions but no-one could give me any decent answers including church. I declared myself an atheist around 22. This was not an easy time for me feeling like I was shammed, tricked etc all these years. I made fun of god, scoffed at believers thought they were naïve etc etc.

The rid of religious guilt was like a huge weight lifted from my shoulders. This also made living for me, worrying about myself, and doing what felt good to me so easy. I also began to research my stance in order justify my non-belief, and got pretty good at it. I was married to a good catholic girl at this time. Needless to say she wasn’t too happy with me right then-we eventually divorced.

During the next few years I started to think that here had to be more to life but still was positive it wasn’t a “god”. I looked at some new age stuff, some of which I really liked but that’s another story. None of it really ever took, but I did decided I was being kind of arrogant so I became agnostic. I thought there’s something bigger out there just not some big bearded guy watching, and judging everything I do.

On the positive side in ’98 when I was 26 I walked by the poker room at my local riverboat and just got smoked playing 1-5 stud! I had no concept of poker, but definitely loved the game right away. I got decent at 1-5 , and even moved up to 2-10-ooooohh I thought that was huge, and the people were so much better. I also thought hold’em was really stupid with it’s community cards, and what is flopping? Now it’s 2000, and poker was an awesome outlet for me, I began to take it seriously, bought some books – when I could find them and was doing ok. Also in 2000 I made my first trip to Vegas, a friend talked me into playing some 4-8 hold’em and after an 18 hour session that was the game for me.

Also at this time I discovered string theory which just fascinated me. I mean a complex theory that unified everything, I got really into it, and thought I should take some more physics classes etc. but that didn’t happen.




To keep things somewhat brief- In 2001 I discovered cocaine-ho man Katy bar the door look out etc etc. It got bad for a year. In 2002 I quit coke packed my stuff and moved to Vegas to play poker for a living, taking my best friend with me. I played mostly 8-16& some 15-30 for the majority all my income for 22 months, I loved it but couldn’t build my bankroll. At this time my mom called me told me that my step dad’s business in Wisconsin was getting a huge contract burying underground utilities and I could make 15-20 grand in 3 months. Perfect. This was March 2004.

Wisconsin was sure different than Vegas, (boring!) but I met Marie. She was a marketing analyst at the same company my mom worked at. We started talking, and since she had lived in Wi her whole life I asked if she knew where I could get some coke, and that I was bored out of my mind.. This was on our first date, and I find out she liked coke but had been clean for a while similar to my situation. Having each been through an addiction to coke before we set down some ground rules to keep things straight. In May the company lost the contract -I had made only 8k in those first 2 months. However my thing with Marie and coke was going strong. 4th of July weekend I was back in Vegas visiting, and decided to fly Marie out. She came, we partied a lot I decided to move to Wi to be with her.

By October 2004 things were getting bad- no pretty terrible. We were recluses, I had not been working or playing much cards, and was going broke just typical addicts-cokeheads. I said we needed to quit. So on November 1st, 2004 I quit coke again so did Marie, or so I thought. She relapsed twice, and on 12-26-05 used a bunch of coke, cut her wrists, took around 40 pain killers, and laid in the tub to die- we had been engaged for 3 weeks.

Earlier that day I had left the house telling her and my mom I was moving back to Vegas. This had been way too much for me to deal with. My mom made the comment that “if you can’t be there when Marie needs you the most, why would she need you at all?” I took this to heart and decided to go check on her. She arrived at the hospital barely alive and was rushed to intensive care where she was stabilized over the next day, and eventually sent to the psychiatric wing. My mom who had been “saved” for 15 or so years said she was praying for Marie, and had me drop off a copy of “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren. Marie told me she had accepted Christ and felt like she was really delivered from drugs this time. At this point I figured whatever she needed to think didn’t matter as long as it helped her. Her grandparents told us about an addicts recovery group at their church that met on Tuesday nights.

I thought oh man; I don’t want to go to a church! I hadn’t been to a church really in 15 years. I figured whatever it takes to help Marie since I was sure I could kick it on my own.





I remember walking into the room, and when the door opened they were singing, and I felt what to me was no less than God putting His arm around me saying “don’t worry everything’s going to be ok.” I looked at Marie we were both crying. A few days later I accepted Christ as my savior. When these things happened to Marie, and I the Holy Spirit came into our lives and changed us. I know how crazy it sounds… I truly became a new person. We wnet back to vegas and got married 2-12-05, and are expecting our first child 2-17-06.

I’m aware that science can’t prove any of this. Should that discount everything though? Is it just because perception is reality? Did I just have a Jerry McGuire moment? Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues? Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment? Is it just my addictive personality? I would answer all of the above no, but that is why this is a discussion board.

Jeff

w_alloy 10-09-2005 06:40 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues? Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment? Is it just my addictive personality?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of these, something else along these lines, or a combination of said options are almost certainly true.

That being said, I am honestly happy for you, I advise not spend much time on this forum, and good luck to you with your new found happiness.

Taraz 10-09-2005 06:42 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
I hope I don't come off as disrespectful at all because I am genuinely curious about people who "find God" or are born-again or whatever.

So Marie attempted suicide and failed and then you guys went to a rehab church group. Upon entering the church you both felt relieved and at peace. Is all this right? I don't doubt any of this and I believe that religion can be an important part of everyone's life, but I don't understand how this comfort has convinced you to accept Christ as your savior.

How does any of this make you feel any more confident that Christ died for your sins? How has it convinced you that he is the only way to God? I don't really care if science can prove any of this because science can never prove or disprove the existence of God. But I am just curious, did it just "feel right" to you? Why does this make you believe in the Bible? I don't get the connection between feeling saved/at peace/relieved/etc and accepting the bible as absolute truth.

sexdrugsmoney 10-09-2005 07:22 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I advise not spend much time on this forum

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the logic behind this advice?

handsome 10-09-2005 07:36 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Great story/testimony. You didn't really go into depth with Marie's transition -- I'm assuming the book convicted her?

Jeff V 10-09-2005 08:39 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Yes, the book got her on her knees.

10-09-2005 08:46 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
That's great that it helped your life. There is a glaring void in your story though -- your faith seems 100% wholly derived from your warm fuzzy provided by the church and 0% derived from rational analysis of its doctrine. For this reason, I think your arguments in this forum are quite lacking.

Jeff V 10-09-2005 08:53 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
But I am just curious, did it just "feel right" to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that's the best way to describe it.

You also raise some good other questions in your last paragraph. I could write a post probably 3 times as long desicribing the almost 10 months sice then. Just say I've been fortunate enough to get plenty of affirmations during that time though.

Jeff V 10-09-2005 09:02 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
your faith seems 100% wholly derived from your warm fuzzy provided by the church and 0% derived from rational analysis of its doctrine

[/ QUOTE ]

True that my faith was derived from what happened at that church-yes. I did not want to make my post Sunday school either. As I've stated before, faith brought me to belief, but study of the Bible, and research on creationism has strengthened it far more than I expected.

BTW- even if yor stement was correct how would that take away from what i feel are very well thought about points about God, creation, or ID?

10-09-2005 09:05 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
I think it would be fair to suggest that any cult with a good salesmen could have converted you at that point.

I am not denying the benefits, they are likely to be social effects along with a tool to re-program your perception of your history, current situation and your out-look.

I think that the atheists/agnostics here would just point out that continuing this idea of a real magical overlord is unneccessary (it may have more value if taught as a fable: at least then people couldn't 'rationally' declare war over land promised to them by the magical overlord)

David Sklansky 10-09-2005 09:23 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
"I advise not spend much time on this forum"


"What is the logic behind this advice?"

Are you kidding? Actually it is similar to why I'm backing off as well.

sexdrugsmoney 10-09-2005 09:25 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
"I advise not spend much time on this forum"


"What is the logic behind this advice?"

Are you kidding? Actually it is similar to why I'm backing off as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'm not kidding, and why are you "backing off as well"?

spaminator101 10-09-2005 01:42 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Hey im just coming back to this forum

malorum 10-09-2005 02:09 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 

[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not kidding, and why are you "backing off as well"?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think I know what David is trying to say:

He feels that all those incredibly cogent Xtian arguments when combined with the barrage of our earnest prayer, are likely to overwhelm his senses and lead to a conversion experience.

10-09-2005 02:15 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Interesting story, thanks for posting.
I'm glad you found faith in something, life is definitely less without it. Good luck with your journey.

Aytumious 10-09-2005 08:06 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not kidding, and why are you "backing off as well"?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think I know what David is trying to say:

He feels that all those incredibly cogent Xtian arguments when combined with the barrage of our earnest prayer, are likely to overwhelm his senses and lead to a conversion experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha.

Peter666 10-09-2005 11:11 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Out of curiosity, what is happening with your first wife?

Taraz 10-10-2005 04:49 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I am just curious, did it just "feel right" to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that's the best way to describe it.

You also raise some good other questions in your last paragraph. I could write a post probably 3 times as long desicribing the almost 10 months sice then. Just say I've been fortunate enough to get plenty of affirmations during that time though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind explaining some of these affirmations? As I said, I'm really fascinated by stories like yours.

NotReady 10-10-2005 09:51 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Thanks for posting this - I know it isn't easy to put something like this out there amongst the wolves.

[ QUOTE ]

Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. We all are. God made us that way.

[ QUOTE ]

Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And much, much more.

[ QUOTE ]

Is it just my addictive personality?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Your love for the things of this world would lead you away from God, not towards Him.

There is emotion in religion and especially in conversion. This is genuine and you shouldn't ignore it. The realization of your guilt and the forgivess of that guilt, the affirmation of meaning in your life, the certainty of purpose in the universe, and much more should produce an emotional high. But that feeling doesn't last, nor should your faith be based on it.

C.S. Lewis once said his faith was weakest after he had spent time defending it publically. The reason is that for just a brief time it seemed as if the truth of Christianity itself depended on him and his abilities, and that can make the whole thing seem weak indeed. Because of that you might be better off not spending much time on this board. There are difficult and tricky arguments against Christianity and many people who would like you to "unconvert".

I don't think I've ever read a so-called "problem text" presented by an unbeliever without at least a brief doubt flashing through my mind. "Is this really a contradiction? Oh no" or "How do I explain that?" Even Satan comes "as an angel of light". He can sometimes be very plausible. I've also never failed to laugh at how quickly my faith can be weakened by the slightest of attacks. There are many arrows launched against us. You should only expose yourself to those you have prepared for, and don't be surprised that you occasionally have weakness. There is no magic formula for the Christian life - we walk by faith, not by sight - and we are all individuals as well as Christ's church. God is able to make you stand, you can never do so on your own strength.

chezlaw 10-10-2005 09:57 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes. We all are. God made us that way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now I know you're wrong. If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.

chez

NotReady 10-10-2005 10:01 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically the excuse Adam and Eve tried to use. It didn't work then and it won't now.

chezlaw 10-10-2005 10:13 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically the excuse Adam and Eve tried to use. It didn't work then and it won't now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not making excuses. If you could see inside my mind as I can you would know the truth of which I speak. If there's a god then of course he can see inside my mind and will also know the truth of it.

You, of course, have no access to my mind except what I tell you and your claim to knowledge is false.

chez

NotReady 10-10-2005 10:16 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

If you could see inside my mind


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's a question of what you think is in your mind and what is in God's word, I'll take His word. He didn't make you so that you are unable to believe. You made yourself that way.

I base that on His word, not from reading your mind. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about. But God's word says you're wrong.

chezlaw 10-10-2005 10:22 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you could see inside my mind


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's a question of what you think is in your mind and what is in God's word, I'll take His word. He didn't make you so that you are unable to believe. You made yourself that way.

I base that on His word, not from reading your mind. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about. But God's word says you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

but if you didn't believe words of men (that claim to come from god) then you would be like me and not believe.

Just because you believe they are the words of god does not make it so.

chez

txag007 10-10-2005 10:58 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Excellent post, Not Ready.

10-10-2005 11:24 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

NotReady 10-10-2005 11:31 AM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.


[/ QUOTE ]

TY.

RJT 10-10-2005 12:25 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes. We all are. God made us that way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now I know you're wrong. If there is a god he made me in such a way that I cannot believe in him.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I think is ironic? (And this is not directed specifically at you, chez. But your post made me think of it.) All of us here on the board have inquisitive minds. We love a challenge, too. We want to be challenged. To solve a puzzle is fulfilling. I’ll quote benkahuna on why he posts here. (Btw ben, my reasons are similar to yours. I was just trying to be humorous when I stated why I post. Evidently I failed.)

1. Boredom
2. Keep intellectually active (poker alone just isn't enough).
3. Learn something
4. Dispel my own misconceptions
5. Keep my debate skills on point.

Anyway, so here we are a gang of challenge seekers (a lot safer and warmer than climbing Everest, too – although now that we know it is really 12 feet shorter, maybe I’ll give it a go).

We have no problem with the fact that “nature” and the universe gives us the challenges it does. Why are the “secrets” not revealed by nature? We don't curse nature. Often the quest to just “know” is enough to keep scientists going in their work. “Because it is there” if you will.

Yet, when we speak of God not revealing these same answers or indeed Himself, we call him (or for the atheists, the non existent thing we believers call God) more or less a Son of B. (Often this type of talk is even used to show the futility of believing in a God.) That is what I find ironic. Wonder why that is?

bohemian 10-10-2005 12:54 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
Jeff, come further.
Power vs. Force

Peace on your path.

BradyC 10-10-2005 01:01 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

[/ QUOTE ]

When reading the forums, I usually just dismiss empty quotes such as this without giving them much thought, and just read the posts containing substance. They pull an obscure quote from someone's post and mock it without ever addressing what the person actually said. I always just figured it is someone trying to be funny with a witty one-liner remark. However, the consistency of such remarks make me wonder if people are afraid to reply due to inadequate answers, or they really aren't comprehending what they're reading.

10-10-2005 01:12 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we walk by faith, not by sight

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, excellent post, NotReady.

[/ QUOTE ]

When reading the forums, I usually just dismiss empty quotes such as this without giving them much thought, and just read the posts containing substance. They pull an obscure quote from someone's post and mock it without ever addressing what the person actually said. I always just figured it is someone trying to be funny with a witty one-liner remark. However, the consistency of such remarks make me wonder if people are afraid to reply due to inadequate answers, or they really aren't comprehending what they're reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have addressed NotReady's posts on many occasions. I felt his quote above summarized my thoughts on his beliefs quite succinctly, however.

10-10-2005 01:29 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yet, when we speak of God not revealing these same answers or indeed Himself, we call him (or for the atheists, the non existent thing we believers call God) more or less a Son of B. (Often this type of talk is even used to show the futility of believing in a God.) That is what I find ironic. Wonder why that is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeking challenges and exploring the mysteries of the universe is a wonderful thing.

Theists, by definition, have made up their mind about the existence of God. When they come across something they don't understand or would like to be different (evolution, big bang, lack of absolute morals, basically any personal incredulity or uncomfortableness), they put it in their little God pigeonhole and are satisfied with explanation. They also tend to believe they are justified in holding such closed minded, anti inquisitive beliefs. Gawd did it, it's all OK! Problem solved. You can stop thinking and questioning and feeling uncomfortable, you have an answer!

When an atheist makes a comment about God's lack of revelation, they are simply pointing out that such closed minded and brutish beliefs are not supported by evidence and not inspired by an inquisitive spirit. Notready's brain lesion with regard to the basis for secular morality, and Bluffthis's strange, illogical belief that "God has made us and loves us and is making sure his TRUE word is communicated to at least ONE religion" are examples of beliefs not inspired by an inquisitive mind but rather come from somewhere else.

Lestat 10-10-2005 02:16 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
<font color="red">I base that on His word, not from reading your mind. If you're right, you have nothing to worry about. But God's word says you're wrong. </font>

How are you so sure that this is God's word and not the word of others? How do you manage such an enormous faith in what others purport is/was God's word?

If someone tells you the tree in their backyard has spoken, why would you be any less likely to believe them, than these people from such a distant time, whom you never met, and know nothing about? It seems to me that the bulk of your faith must lie in these people. Even more so, than in God.

NotReady 10-10-2005 02:23 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

Notready's brain lesion with regard to the basis for secular morality,


[/ QUOTE ]

I've never denied the existence of relative, secular morality. I've repeated ad nauseum that atheists often outperform Christians in the morality of their lives. What I deny ( along with many philosophers ) is that absolute morality can be justified if God doesn't exist. I've quoted Nietszche, Russell, Marx, Michael Martin and Dostoevsky.

The response I keep getting from all you open-minded atheists is that I'm irrational, I have no basis for making the statement, I have a brain lesion.

Why don't you people ever address the issue instead of resorting to personal insults and straw man arguments?

The question is real simple. Nothing is hidden, nothing is tricky.

Ok, you sitting down? You ready? Here's the question.

Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it?

Did you get that? Do you understand the question? Do you want me to repeat it?

Ok, good, you got it. Now do what no philosopher, theologian or moralist has yet managed. Go ahead. Do it. Show me. Put your money where your mouth is.

Criminy.

purnell 10-10-2005 02:37 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]


Why shouldn't someone commit murder if he wants to and can get away with it?



[/ QUOTE ]

There is no answer.

There are no absolutes.

The individual does not survive the body.

If some madman blows us all up tomorrow, that's the end of it.


and it's all "ok". or not "ok". you choose.

NotReady 10-10-2005 02:44 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

If someone tells you the tree in their backyard has spoken


[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible is not a tree.

[ QUOTE ]

than these people from such a distant time, whom you never met, and know nothing about?


[/ QUOTE ]

We know a lot about them.

The Bible is the most amazing document of ancient history. Its historical and archeological accuracies are superb. Skeptics have been converted simply from making an honest effort to prove it's invalidity.

Search the net. There's tons of information pro and con. If you just want to be flip or have no serious interest in the subject I can't help you.

But the Bible stands out in a way no other religious claims does for many reasons. Most people who say "It's just a book like any other book", or "It's just as reasonable to believe in the spaghetti monster as the Bible" usually have done no investigation of their own.

NotReady 10-10-2005 02:47 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]

There is no answer.

There are no absolutes.

The individual does not survive the body.

If some madman blows us all up tomorrow, that's the end of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You just want to use these as your axioms, starting points, presuppositions, fine. Please don't tell me you are making a logical argument or that you have in any way shown my arguments unsound by making these assertions.

hurlyburly 10-10-2005 02:47 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
I’m aware that science can’t prove any of this. Should that discount everything though?

No, you should not.

Is it just because perception is reality?

It's all about needs.

Am I the type of person who needs to believe in something bigger than himself to deal with past issues?

Why didn't you become a born-again research scientist? The answer to this one is obvious.

Is God a crutch for me to deal with my problems that are just around for the moment? Is it just my addictive personality?

I'm happier for you that you aren't a down and out drug addict. We all have and need crutches, life is hard.

Lestat 10-10-2005 02:51 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
I'm not trying to be flip. I would love to have more of an understanding about the bible. I haven't delved much further because:

Do you (am I) supposed to take the old testament literally? i.e. do you (should I), believe in talking snakes, men living to be 900 years old, etc? If so, I don't think I can get past that. I'm not sure anyone should.

10-10-2005 03:00 PM

Re: How I Became a Christian (LONG)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't tell me you are making a logical argument or that you have in any way shown my arguments unsound by making these assertions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguments *are* assertions.


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