54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

Unfortunately this is my first (omgosh) hand at this table.

Party Poker 0.001/0.002 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero ... ?

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

Meh. Whatever. It's only .4 cents, you can't even buy a candy bar for that these days.

Oh, wait, hypothetical table, right?! Fold. You could only play this aggro if the flop came 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and I think your action would pretty much dry up.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

it's actually only .002 dollars, so .2 cents, but let's talk about small bets and big bets here.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

I doubt your bankroll can support making yet another $.002 big bet preflop. Move to a different table, the variance at this one is going to kill you.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

21:2 closing the action? Sure, I'll play it.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

yeah, i called.

now what?

Party Poker 0.01/0.02 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero ... ?

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
21:2 closing the action? Sure, I'll play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have miscounted, but I've got 15:2.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

...runs screaming into the night and waits for a better opportunity.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, i called.

now what?

Party Poker 0.01/0.02 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this situation. You only had to put in $.008 preflop, and the pot is up to .17 on the flop. I'm not sure where all that extra money came from, but if it's gonna happen on each street, you definitely have the odds to make this call.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
21:2 closing the action? Sure, I'll play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have miscounted, but I've got 15:2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, crap you're right. But I'm still calling.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, i called.

now what?

Party Poker 0.01/0.02 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]
My first thought is to get out as fast as possible. But you're getting 11:1 (and yeah, it could be re-raised), the pot's ginormous and everyone else probably has big cards. Still you're really only worried about JJ here and the flush draw (And UTG and Button both seem to have big pairs, making the flush draw less scary). Anything else you have a very live draw against.

I'd call again. I'd feel funny doing it, but that's what I'd do.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

well i called there, too. the turn is a no brainer decision now that we have a gutshot, so onto the river.

Party Poker 0.01/0.02 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero ... ?

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well i called there, too. the turn is a no brainer decision now that we have a gutshot, so onto the river.

Party Poker 0.01/0.02 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, pretty nice outcome. I'd rather've seen the 4 but I'll take the 5.

I'm pretty sure you're ahead here and I'm pretty sure Button will bet his overpair. It depends on whether or not he'd put you on a flush draw or a 6 and check behind -- but I'm guessing they're not thinking at that level at .00000001/.00000002.

So I'd try for a check-raise and call a 3-bet. If you have a read that button's more timid than most, then just lead out.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
River: (15.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet and (hopefully) trap UTG for a bet.

If you check, Button may check behind, which sucks.

If he does bet and you check-raise, UTG is almost certainly not calling 2 bets, so you only win 2BB.

If he does bet and you just call, UTG may decide not to overcall, and you only win 1BB.

If you bet, UTG will probably make a crying call, as will Button (or he'll raise and you can 3-bet), and you win at least 2BB.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River: (15.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero ... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

...

If you bet, UTG will probably make a crying call, as will Button (or he'll raise and you can 3-bet), and you win at least 2BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
i really don't think it would ever be right to bet and 3-bet this river.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

Here is what I'd do (not that it matters)

- Call preflop, duh

- Fold the flop

- Check the river

Edited to add that if you do bet the river, you almost surely have to fold to a raise.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i really don't think it would ever be right to bet and 3-bet this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, 3-betting is too much, but you don't like a bet? While one of the villains could have something like AJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (and i suppose UTG could have KQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something and bet the flop for value with his flush draw + overs), there are a lot of hands that don't contain 2 spades that fit here.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I'd do (not that it matters)

- Call preflop, duh

- Fold the flop

- Check the river

Edited to add that if you do bet the river, you almost surely have to fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why fold the flop getting 22:2 to call ?

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

bet/fold the river. the flop is sketchy...

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
- Call preflop, duh

- Fold the flop

- Check the river

[/ QUOTE ]
Your hand is very weak on this flop. 3rd pair, no kicker. 2 flush flop, not your suit. Two players like their hand. Two back to you. Chance of getting three-bet. 11:1 is not good enough compensation. Release.

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

Why fold the flop getting 22:2 to call ?

- 23:2 is the best that we can get here. The problem is that it will oftentimes get 3-bet in which case our odds will be set at 26:3 (or even capped which would be 29:4).

- We don't have 5 outs in this hand. Even if we make fives up, we have to dodge an 8 outer coming back on the river (at least). That right there takes away .54 of an out. The times that we hit trips, we will have to avoid at least a 2-outer on the end (another .09 of an out). Then you have to consider the times that hitting the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] will either leave us drawing thin or leave our opponents drawing to as many as 16 outs against us.

You have to remember that this is the bare minimum here. If we are up against 2 overpairs (or Jx) we are in even worse shape. The time to draw at 2nd or 3rd pair is when you have a good kicker. We will get counterfitted way too often to call two on the flop when there is a very real chance that it will get 3-bet or capped behind us.

Brad

Re: 54 of hearts - should I call preflop?
 

Thankyou for taking the time to make such a clear explanation Shillx.

It was very helpful.