Guns > abortion clinics
 

I saw this bumper sticker:

http://prodtn.cafepress.com/9/13747789_F_tn.jpg

I laughed out loud. Then in one of Zeno's threads I used it as a joke. Somebody got pissed and then somebody said "I really don't think wacki believes it".

Well guess what, I do believe it. I shot a gun today. I had a ton of fun and I didn't kill anyone. Clay pigeon shooting is a great sport. I own a sniper rifle and it will probably never kill anyone. How many abortion clinics do you know that don't kill any babies? Also, how many women do you know LOVE going to the abortion clinic? Legal gun owners in florida commit crimes at 1/300th the rate of people who don't own guns. People who legally use abortion clinics often aren't responsible enough to properly use a prophylactic.

GUNS REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ABORTION CLINICS.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

Yeah but abortion clinics don't kill anyone... fatal flaw.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but abortion clinics don't kill anyone... fatal flaw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um no.

http://www.lifeissues.org/images/PBA.jpg

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

You are missing the flaw in logic that he caught.

-ptmusic

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

Wacki,

Replace 'clinics' with 'doctors' and I think it may become clearer.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

Voltron is correct. The clinic is just a building or a suite of offices. The doctors do whatever killing that goes on.

OTOH, what abortion clinic was ever openned without the intention of facilitating killing?

Plenty of guns have been made that were not ever intended to be used to kill people.

So Wacki has a definite point.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Voltron is correct. The clinic is just a building or a suite of offices. The doctors do whatever killing that goes on.

OTOH, what abortion clinic was ever openned without the intention of facilitating killing?

Plenty of guns have been made that were not ever intended to be used to kill people.

So Wacki has a definite point.

[/ QUOTE ]
They were never opened with the intention of killing people.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Voltron is correct. The clinic is just a building or a suite of offices. The doctors do whatever killing that goes on.

OTOH, what abortion clinic was ever openned without the intention of facilitating killing?

Plenty of guns have been made that were not ever intended to be used to kill people.

So Wacki has a definite point.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bumper sticker is rather silly, IMO. The whole point of the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" cliche is to convey the notion that it's not our instruments/tools which kill people, but people who kill people.

Similarly, abortion 'clinics' don't kill people, but people kill people. I fail to see Wacki's point, unless he chages his axion to "GUNS REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ABORTION DOCTORS" rather than "GUNS REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ABORTION CLINICS"

So if I were pro-life, I don't particularly hold the building very responsible for the deaths which occur inside of it.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

The fact remains. You can buy a gun and hope never to use it against someone. (Not to mention guns used solely for sport)

A clinic would be a huge financial failure if they didn't cycle through the killing on a routine basis. They were truly designed and intended for multiple killings.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

good point.

How about "Gun owners are better that abortion clinic patients"

I hold nothing against the doctors, I don't even have stong feelings on abortion. I'm just making a point.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact remains. You can buy a gun and hope never to use it against someone. (Not to mention guns used solely for sport)

A clinic would be a huge financial failure if they didn't cycle through the killing on a routine basis. They were truly designed and intended for multiple killings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I believe most abortion clinics serve other purposes - and weren't 'designed and intended' to host abortion clinics, but ended up serving that function after abortion providers bought the building from it's previous owners - or after doctors decided to provide abortions after the construction of the building, etc.

Given the amount of semantics involved, I think the bumper stick fails.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact remains. You can buy a gun and hope never to use it against someone. (Not to mention guns used solely for sport)

A clinic would be a huge financial failure if they didn't cycle through the killing on a routine basis. They were truly designed and intended for multiple killings.

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact remains that many people feel that what goes on in these clinics should not be defined as killing. However, If you feel that removal of a fetus is killing it or an act of murder then you are correct.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the amount of semantics involved, I think the bumper stick fails.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the amount of semantics involved, the bumper sticker would have to be written by a lawyer and 3 pages long to make you agree with it.

You know damn well what it's trying to say.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the amount of semantics involved, I think the bumper stick fails.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the amount of semantics involved, the bumper sticker would have to be written by a lawyer and 3 pages long to make you agree with it.

You know damn well what it's trying to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I do...but as I said, the "guns don't kill people, people don't kill people" cliché is intended to imply to the audience that people should be held responsible for their actions; in other words, don't try to place the blame on non-animate object for the bad things people do with them.

Similarly, an 'abortion clinic' is a relatively neutral place, except for the bad things people do inside of them.

In other words, do pro-lifers care about outlawing abortion clinics, or abortions? The bumper stick (when juxtaposed with the cliché it's a parody of) implies that pro-lifers merely wish to outlaw buildings or structures.

If you find nuance distasteful, I don’t know what to tell you. But it seems to be a rather silly bumper stick, IMO.

It doesn't take a lawyer and 3 pages for me to understand the wisdom of "guns don't kill people, people kill people." I think it's a cliche that's we can still invalidate (in regards to using it to justify an opposition to gun control laws - so in that way, it's still somewhat meaningless, like many cliches), but "Guns don't kill people, abortion clinics kill people" is just ironic, considering the cliche it's derived from.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
...should not be defined as killing

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people think self-defense should not be defined as killing. In fact, I would call it, [i]fulfilling the criminal's desire to attain a Darwin Award. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you find nuance distasteful, I don’t know what to tell you. But it seems to be a rather silly bumper stick, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I find you requiring a bumper sticker to cover all the nuances distasteful. A retard should be able to figure out what it's trying to say.

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't take a lawyer and 3 pages for me to understand the wisdom of "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already played your word game and changed my maxim. Get with the program.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you find nuance distasteful, I don’t know what to tell you. But it seems to be a rather silly bumper stick, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I find you requiring a bumper sticker to cover all the nuances distasteful. A retard should be able to figure out what it's trying to say.

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't take a lawyer and 3 pages for me to understand the wisdom of "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already played your word game and changed my maxim. Get with the program.

[/ QUOTE ]

The power of any bumper sticker, catch-phrase, tagline, etc. is to have both some elements of truth to it, and have some power of persuasion. I think the "guns don't kill people, abortion clinics kill people" might fulfill the second criteria, but it fails the first.

So, I understand what the bumper sticker is getting at, but I still think it's rather stupid. Pro-lifers clearly aren't against buildings, structures, bricks, mortar, nails, and roofs, but instead they're opposed to the actions which take place inside of said abortion clinics.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
The power of any bumper sticker, catch-phrase, tagline, etc. is to have both some elements of truth to it, and have some power of persuasion. I think the "guns don't kill people, abortion clinics kill people" might fulfill the second criteria, but it fails the first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a grain of truth to it eh?

ok.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The power of any bumper sticker, catch-phrase, tagline, etc. is to have both some elements of truth to it, and have some power of persuasion. I think the "guns don't kill people, abortion clinics kill people" might fulfill the second criteria, but it fails the first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a grain of truth to it eh?

ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you know of a poorly-constructed abortion clinic that collapsed and killed some inside, then no, I don't see truth to it.

Abortion clinics don't kill people, people kill people.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

they should ban everything from everyone. ideally.

rj

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

It's almost comical to think how different the opinions of men who don't support the right to choose would be if, suddenly, we were the ones had to carry fetuses..

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]

Wacki,

Replace 'clinics' with 'doctors' and I think it may become clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]


DVaut1,

So why didn't you just say that in the first place? And even that doesn't address the central point Wacki is trying to raise or discuss.

I'm sorry to say it, but so far this thread seems to be another example of how your primary purpose in posting often appears more the process of argument for argument's sake, rather than sincere discussion of issues.

I'm not saying every thread should be diversion-free, but why do you feel the need to harp so much on such angles, instead of addressing the main point or points raised? Why nitpick so, clogging up a thread with a bunch of posts to such an extent? It's almost a form of hijacking or trolling, the way I see it.

Everybody has a chance to make their small impact on this forum for better or for worse--just as in real life. Why not try to make the places you go a little better for your having visited?

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wacki,

Replace 'clinics' with 'doctors' and I think it may become clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]


DVaut1,

So why didn't you just say that in the first place?



[/ QUOTE ]

Was it not the first response I made? It was what I said in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
And even that doesn't address the central point Wacki is trying to raise or discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

His central point might be even more meaningless than the bumper sticker; abortion clinics are worse than guns? No kidding.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to say it, but so far this thread seems to be another example of how your primary purpose in posting often appears to be more the process of argument for argument's sake, rather than sincere discussion of issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Earth to MMMMMM: This forum is one big argument. No genuine discussion takes place here. Sorry, I hate to say it. But this place is full of morons. Count me as one of those morons. Count yourself as one of them, too. But there's no important discussion taking place here. Sorry.

As someone once described it (quite correctly), it's 20 people having a never-ending flame war.

Again, what to discuss here if not the bumper sticker? It was central to his OP; if you look at the other responses in this thread, most other posters noticed the silliness of the cliche, too.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying every thread should be diversion-free,

[/ QUOTE ]

How nice of you to allow such diversions.

[ QUOTE ]
but why do you feel the need to harp so much on such angles, instead of addressing the main point or points raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, okay. Well, abortion clinics are worse than guns, yes. Also, the sky is blue.

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody has a chance to make their small impact on this forum for better or for worse--just as in real life. Why not try to make the places you go a little better for your having visited?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone is free to post in whatever manner they want. I post in whatever way most pleases me. Some have fun this way, other's have fun pretending their Islamic scholars and beating the drums of Islamo-phobia. Frankly, I think a great majority of your posts regarding Islam do nothing but flame the fans of hatred and they're are chalked full of nonsense; certainly their 'contribution' does nothing expect further my belief that you're of a simple mind, and don't constitute 'discourse' except for the dim-witted - so why don't you consider making a small impact on this forum towards the more intellectual, and post less inane, poorly-thought out nonsense. Consider it, anyway.

----------------------------

Or, how about we end all asinine lecturing about subjective assessments over how posts contribute to the community, and we just live and let live, and end all moral posturing over how posters behave here. Consider it, anyway. And I mean it this time.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

DVaut1,

You have a very flawed idea of the nature and purpose of this forum.

Contrary to your assertion, there IS a lot of genuine discussion taking place here. There happened to be more of it, though, before certain posters came along.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
DVaut1,

You have a very flawed idea of the nature and purpose of this forum.

Contrary to your assertion, there IS a lot of genuine discussion taking place here. There happened to be more of it, though, before certain posters came along.

[/ QUOTE ]

If what you offer here is considered genuine, intellectual discussion, and exemplary of what was present before - than I doubt what you say is true.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

Never mind about what you think about me or my posts. Just have some respect for the other posters and the fact that SOME people are actually trying to have genuine discussions.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's almost comical to think how different the opinions of men who don't support the right to choose would be if, suddenly, we were the ones had to carry fetuses..

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Ruth-Bader Ginsberg has made a similar point in her opposition to restrictions on abortion (more correctly, I believe she argued that denial of abortion produced on undue burden on the 'life course' of women; certainly a much more complicated view than I've presented here, though).

However, abortion is undeniably a killing (and I would also argue, it's NOT murder, either). Regardless, I'm of the mind that abortion should be illegal; yet I have no firm beliefs as to how illegal abortion should be, nor what the punishment for those who seek and provides abortions ought to be; but abortion, as I see it, is unethical, even if the burden placed on women is unequal to that placed on men (that is, like you said - men do not carry children).

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Never mind about what you think about me or my posts. Just have some respect for the other posters and the fact that SOME people are actually trying to have genuine discussions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I showed wacki any disrespect (did I hint that he was retarded if he didn't see my point, as he did to me?; not that I particularly care if he calls me retarded. I don't doubt I often display characterists a retard would) - and I had the discussion I wanted to have; and it was a discussion that other posters were interested in as well.

But thanks for the recommendation. It will go ignored (like all recommendations from you), to be sure.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Never mind about what you think about me or my posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conversely, MMMMMM, nevermind what you think of me and my posts, just stop posting silly nonsense about Islam.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

If you guys are going to continue to bicker like this, you should take it to PM or AIM.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
Never mind about what you think about me or my posts. Just have some respect for the other posters and the fact that SOME people are actually trying to have genuine discussions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bet you're reeeeeaaaally missing that "ban poster" button, aren't cha.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

It still works, Elliot.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never mind about what you think about me or my posts. Just have some respect for the other posters and the fact that SOME people are actually trying to have genuine discussions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bet you're reeeeeaaaally missing that "ban poster" button, aren't cha.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It still works, Elliot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I've behaved in any way (not just in this thread) that legitimately deserved a banning, I would welcome it.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never mind about what you think about me or my posts. Just have some respect for the other posters and the fact that SOME people are actually trying to have genuine discussions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conversely, MMMMMM, nevermind what you think of me and my posts, just stop posting silly nonsense about Islam.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really do an awful lot of trolling, DVaut1. How would you feel about taking a vacation? Never mind, don't answer that.

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

I agree with wacki. good one

Re: Guns > abortion clinics
 

[ QUOTE ]
It still works, Elliot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent! Let the pool predicting how long MMMMMM will hold out before banning someone again commence.

Opening line: Election day 2006.