QQ hand
 

Paradise $10 rebuy, about 40% of field left, blinds 300/600/25. I am a little above average with T13K. I raise to 1800 in 2nd position with QQ and get 4 callers.

Flop is KT7,r. I am 2nd to act and check. It is checked around.

Turn is a 5. I bet 5000. 4th position raises 6000 allin, having me slightly covered. It is folded back to me.

Should I call? Should I have checked the flop? Should I have bet the turn?

Re: QQ hand
 

With 4 callers and an overcard, I can't believe you had the stones to bet without a set. I'm weak-tight, but is it mathematically possible for 5 to see the flop for a 3x raise without someone having a decent king? 6000 more to call? Insta-fold. He can't be bluffing with 4 to act behind him. If he is, he's earned this pot, so you should laydown then too [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'm guessing he had 55 since you questioned your flop play. AK is my 2nd guess, since he was your first caller.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm weak-tight, but is it mathematically possible for 5 to see the flop for a 3x raise without someone having a decent king?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is a king that likely in a hand to flat call an early position raise with? AK might reraise and calling with KQs, KJs, or KTs is kind of questionable.

Re: QQ hand
 

I check this flop everytime, I might c/r a weak bet here to find out where I am and you might get KQ,KJ etc to fold as youve represented strength pre flop and post flop.

After you lead out and get re-raised what hands that don't beat you do you really expect to see?

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise $10 rebuy, about 40% of field left, blinds 300/600/25. I am a little above average with T13K. I raise to 1800 in 2nd position with QQ and get 4 callers.

Flop is KT7,r. I am 2nd to act and check. It is checked around.

Turn is a 5. I bet 5000. 4th position raises 6000 allin, having me slightly covered. It is folded back to me.

Should I call? Should I have checked the flop? Should I have bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the flop. If you are checking the flop, I think checking the turn and river unless you improve is the best play.

Re: QQ hand
 

You don't reraise with AK every time, do you? It fits in with his position (as your first caller), and he probably wasn't happy having 3 callers behind, either. I agree it seems less likely than a set of tens or sevens, but that is a safe flop for AK and he might have wanted to check-raise. The turn card doesn't change a thing. The only hands I rule out are AA and KK.

I agree that KQ-T is unlikely for him, I'd expect to see a hand like that from later position (where odds start trumping your position as open-raiser).

Judging by the strength he's shown and the information given, I can't see you beating him here.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paradise $10 rebuy, about 40% of field left, blinds 300/600/25. I am a little above average with T13K. I raise to 1800 in 2nd position with QQ and get 4 callers.

Flop is KT7,r. I am 2nd to act and check. It is checked around.

Turn is a 5. I bet 5000. 4th position raises 6000 allin, having me slightly covered. It is folded back to me.

Should I call? Should I have checked the flop? Should I have bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the flop. If you are checking the flop, I think checking the turn and river unless you improve is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? i think the odds you're ahead aren't very good at this point, and if you are, you might win the pot by checking it down. also if you are ahead, you might get moved off the hand. with this many people in the pot, i rarely bet again if i don't have top pair or better.

Re: QQ hand
 

This hand has me thinking about Shania. How much are the queens worth on that flop with 4 to act? With ~20BBs and a 15BB pot, what can you raise to w/o committing that still shows strength?

I'm serious, btw, not asking like I know the answer. I used to try to represent AK in these spots, but the burns outweighed the victories. Now I represent 62o and look for a better spot.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet the flop. If you are checking the flop, I think checking the turn and river unless you improve is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QQ hand
 

I lead out the flop generally. If you get a caller or a raiser then it is a fold. By not betting the flop you have a really tough decision here on the turn for all of your chips.

What did he have? 10-10?

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm weak-tight, but is it mathematically possible for 5 to see the flop for a 3x raise without someone having a decent king?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is a king that likely in a hand to flat call an early position raise with? AK might reraise and calling with KQs, KJs, or KTs is kind of questionable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was he the first caller or second? I would give him more credit for a K as 2nd caller.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Was he the first caller or second? I would give him more credit for a K as 2nd caller.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st caller.

Re: QQ hand
 

I would probaly have taken you're line. With 4 callers I'm thinking I'm probably beat on the flop and check. The value bet on the turn seems reasonable.

The fact that it was the first caller pushing makes me put him on a set of Ts, 7s and I fold.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would probaly have taken you're line. With 4 callers I'm thinking I'm probably beat on the flop and check. The value bet on the turn seems reasonable.

The fact that it was the first caller pushing makes me put him on a set of Ts, 7s and I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn, I wouldn't call it a value bet so much as protecting my hand. With so many hands, I was afraid someone would make something that beat QQ or make a play for the pot.

For some reason I called the push. I was getting great pot odds, which doesn't help if I am drawing to 2 outs. I guess I wondered why he didn't bet the flop. Since no one showed strength, maybe he thought I was just taking a shot at the pot.

Villain had 55 as the first responder suggested, and made a set on the turn.

Re: QQ hand
 

i think your bet on the turn was wrong.
depending on your table image if its tight then you would not be raising 1800 out of position with 77 .that leaves TT or KK and if you had any of them the check on the turn would kind of make sense even though IMO its too dangerous with 4 others in the hand a straight draw on the bored to check a set.and even if you did ,the 5000 bet on the turn kind of indicates that your not looking for callers which really dosent go with set.
AA is out of question as well again because of the check on the flop.
55 is also not likely that some one would raise 3BB out so much out of position.
i think you were really done with the hand after the flop if you didn’t get a set with that many callers but if you wanted to make one last stab at it it should have been on the flop because you would be representing KK,AA ,AK and if you got called your most likely beat and your done with the hand.
but to answer you question you should deffo fold the the all in bet even though you may have the best hand.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think your bet on the turn was wrong.
depending on your table image if its tight then you would not be raising 1800 out of position with 77 .that leaves TT or KK and if you had any of them the check on the turn would kind of make sense even though IMO its too dangerous with 4 others in the hand a straight draw on the bored to check a set.and even if you did ,the 5000 bet on the turn kind of indicates that your not looking for callers which really dosent go with set.
AA is out of question as well again because of the check on the flop.
55 is also not likely that some one would raise 3BB out so much out of position.
i think you were really done with the hand after the flop if you didn’t get a set with that many callers but if you wanted to make one last stab at it it should have been on the flop because you would be representing KK,AA ,AK and if you got called your most likely beat and your done with the hand.
but to answer you question you should deffo fold the the all in bet even though you may have the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying that the turn bet was good. However, what is the big deal about representing something. I wasn't trying to represent anything. I thought I has the best hand. If you have the best hand, you don't need to represent.

I think the bet on the turn looks like what I had, JJ or QQ, and I decided no one has a king. Either that or I could have slowplayed AA, KK, AK, or TT, hoping someone else would bet the flop.

Re: QQ hand
 

I think the bet on the turn looks like what I had, JJ or QQ, and I decided no one has a king. Either that or I could have slowplayed AA, KK, AK, or TT, hoping someone else would bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

slow playing AA in this situation with the texture of the flop and the amount of callers is extreamly wrong IMO.
also giving that there is about 7200 in the pot slow playing TT or KK is wrong as well considering the texture of the flop. suppose you did have TT or KK in this situation in you did check and the turn was Q,A,J ,you made your 5000 raise and some one near the end went all in.what would you do?do not think they could have made their straight and they would have folded to your bet on the flop?

Re: QQ hand
 

I'd love to hear some reasons behind leading out on the flop with 4 callers. I'm with the camp that I think it's very possible that someone has at least a King. I'd check the flop and check the turn and be willing to call a marginal bet from a late position (possible) steal attempt.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paradise $10 rebuy, about 40% of field left, blinds 300/600/25. I am a little above average with T13K. I raise to 1800 in 2nd position with QQ and get 4 callers.

Flop is KT7,r. I am 2nd to act and check. It is checked around.

Turn is a 5. I bet 5000. 4th position raises 6000 allin, having me slightly covered. It is folded back to me.

Should I call? Should I have checked the flop? Should I have bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the flop. If you are checking the flop, I think checking the turn and river unless you improve is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? i think the odds you're ahead aren't very good at this point, and if you are, you might win the pot by checking it down. also if you are ahead, you might get moved off the hand. with this many people in the pot, i rarely bet again if i don't have top pair or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop is ATx, I'm going to check, but with KTx, you are more likely to still have the best hand. Also, the pot is a significant increase to your stack, I'm not prepared to give it up just yet. Finally, do you really think 5 people are going to check this board all the way down? That's pretty unrealistic.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop is ATx, I'm going to check, but with KTx, you are more likely to still have the best hand. Also, the pot is a significant increase to your stack, I'm not prepared to give it up just yet. Finally, do you really think 5 people are going to check this board all the way down? That's pretty unrealistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is 8K in the pot and I have 11K left. I have some of my opponents covered, so I don't necessarily need to put in 11K.

There is a pretty good chance QQ is ahead on a KT7 flop, so I may be getting odds to put my money in.

When it was checked around and the turn was a 5, I had more reason to think I was ahead.

I think my turn bet was right. It's possible I should have bet the flop. I probably should have folded to the push on the turn.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to hear some reasons behind leading out on the flop with 4 callers. I'm with the camp that I think it's very possible that someone has at least a King. I'd check the flop and check the turn and be willing to call a marginal bet from a late position (possible) steal attempt.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the check on the flop in fine as long as you check the turn and river unless you improve.
what i didnt like was the check on the flop and the bet on the turn.
also seen as as you said with 4 other players its very unlikely that some one dosent have a K,so as a last stab at the pot i would also be think a bet of around 3K on the flop in fine.your getting nearly 2.5:1 odds on the bet ,if you get called you can see the turn , if you get rerasied your done .

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think the check on the flop in fine as long as you check the turn and river unless you improve.
what i didnt like was the check on the flop and the bet on the turn.
also seen as as you said with 4 other players its very unlikely that some one dosent have a K,so as a last stab at the pot i would also be think a bet of around 3K on the flop in fine.your getting nearly 2.5:1 odds on the bet ,if you get called you can see the turn , if you get rerasied your done .

[/ QUOTE ]

I did improve. I didn't make a set, but it was checked around and the turn was a brick, so the probability I was ahead went way up.

I am not crazy about betting 3K into a 5-way 8K pot when I am not sure I am ahead, with the intention to fold to a raise. Maybe it's a good play, but it is not my style.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think the check on the flop in fine as long as you check the turn and river unless you improve.
what i didnt like was the check on the flop and the bet on the turn.
also seen as as you said with 4 other players its very unlikely that some one dosent have a K,so as a last stab at the pot i would also be think a bet of around 3K on the flop in fine.your getting nearly 2.5:1 odds on the bet ,if you get called you can see the turn , if you get rerasied your done .

[/ QUOTE ]

I did improve. I didn't make a set, but it was checked around and the turn was a brick, so the probability I was ahead went way up.

I am not crazy about betting 3K into a 5-way 8K pot when I am not sure I am ahead, with the intention to fold to a raise. Maybe it's a good play, but it is not my style.

[/ QUOTE ]
as it turns out 5 wasnt a brick,it made a set for some one.with 4 other ppl in the pot almost any card could be a danger card for you.
by imroving i meant make your set and even if you did i would still be cautious how i would play it.
as for the 3k bet ,i wouldnt make it my self in this situation but i wouldnt fault some one for doing it either.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paradise $10 rebuy, about 40% of field left, blinds 300/600/25. I am a little above average with T13K. I raise to 1800 in 2nd position with QQ and get 4 callers.

Flop is KT7,r. I am 2nd to act and check. It is checked around.

Turn is a 5. I bet 5000. 4th position raises 6000 allin, having me slightly covered. It is folded back to me.

Should I call? Should I have checked the flop? Should I have bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the flop. If you are checking the flop, I think checking the turn and river unless you improve is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against one opponent I see leading out on the flop. Against three this is a clear check.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
as it turns out 5 wasnt a brick,it made a set for some one.with 4 other ppl in the pot almost any card could be a danger card for you.
by imroving i meant make your set and even if you did i would still be cautious how i would play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the 5 made someone a set. However, if I was ahead on the flop, it was unlikely the 5 would change things.

When it got checked around and a brick hit, it seems reasonable for me to bet essentialy even money that I am ahead. As Gavin suggested, it might also be reasonable to bet even money in the flop that no one had a king or set.

Are you saying I should be careful if I make the 2nd highest set? Sure a Q could make a straight for someone. But I would only be behind AJ, J9, and KK. With 11K left and 8K in the pot, I don't see how you can play this hand carefully.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as it turns out 5 wasnt a brick,it made a set for some one.with 4 other ppl in the pot almost any card could be a danger card for you.
by imroving i meant make your set and even if you did i would still be cautious how i would play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the 5 made someone a set. However, if I was ahead on the flop, it was unlikely the 5 would change things.

When it got checked around and a brick hit, it seems reasonable for me to bet essentialy even money that I am ahead. As Gavin suggested, it might also be reasonable to bet even money in the flop that no one had a king or set.

Are you saying I should be careful if I make the 2nd highest set? Sure a Q could make a straight for someone. But I would only be behind AJ, J9, and KK. With 11K left and 8K in the pot, I don't see how you can play this hand carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]
with your stack being what it is your right a set of Qs is a push .however when you say if you were ahead on the flop then its unlikely that a 5 would change things.
how can you be sure that its unlikely the 5 would change things?
5 way pot,what kind of ranges are you putting the other 4 on that a 5 is unlikely to change things?
what im trying to say is with that many people in the pot IMO any card at all can change things from turn to river,do you not agree?

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
with your stack being what it is your right a set of Qs is a push .however when you say if you were ahead on the flop then its unlikely that a 5 would change things.
how can you be sure that its unlikely the 5 would change things?
5 way pot,what kind of ranges are you putting the other 4 on that a 5 is unlikely to change things?
what im trying to say is with that many people in the pot IMO any card at all can change things from turn to river,do you not agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, the 5 could change things and it did. However, it was unlikely that the 5 changed things. Of course it is a dangerous situation in a 5-way raised pot. However, the pot is awfully big and I want it.

I bet that I was ahead and I was wrong. Some of this discussion is making me think I played the hand right. You have to go by probabilities and odds and I think they were in favor of putting my money in on the turn.

Re: QQ hand
 

Yeh, the 5 could change things and it did. However, it was unlikely that the 5 changed things. Of course it is a dangerous situation in a 5-way raised pot. However, the pot is awfully big and I want it.

I bet that I was ahead and I was wrong. Some of this discussion is making me think I played the hand right. You have to go by probabilities and odds and I think they were in favor of putting my money in on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

im very interested to know based on probability how you figured that you were ahead on the turn?
as far as i know ,probability in this case works like this:
you put your opponent/s on a range of hands, calculate your hands against them ,and according to the odds your getting you decide if its +EV or not to make the play.
now when you put your opponents on a range, in this case 4 of them, do you not think 4 cards on the bored is much more likely to complete that hand range than 3?what i am saying is that the fact that the turn was a 5 is irrelevant.
For example if you were in the same situation with 7 other ppl, would you have bet the turn if a 2 or a 3 fell on the turn?
my point is the bet on the turn is wrong IMO because it did not make your hand stronger than what you had on the flop.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
im very interested to know based on probability how you figured that you were ahead on the turn?
as far as i know ,probability in this case works like this:
you put your opponent/s on a range of hands, calculate your hands against them ,and according to the odds your getting you decide if its +EV or not to make the play.
now when you put your opponents on a range, in this case 4 of them, do you not think 4 cards on the bored is much more likely to complete that hand range than 3?what i am saying is that the fact that the turn was a 5 is irrelevant.
For example if you were in the same situation with 7 other ppl, would you have bet the turn if a 2 or a 3 fell on the turn?
my point is the bet on the turn is wrong IMO because it did not make your hand stronger than what you had on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am ahead because no one bet the flop. Unless someone was slow plyaing a set or the 5 made a set for someone, I should be ahead.

Re: QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Paradise $10 rebuy, about 40% of field left, blinds 300/600/25. I am a little above average with T13K. I raise to 1800 in 2nd position with QQ and get 4 callers.

Flop is KT7,r. I am 2nd to act and check. It is checked around.

Turn is a 5. I bet 5000. 4th position raises 6000 allin, having me slightly covered. It is folded back to me.

Should I call? Should I have checked the flop? Should I have bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the flop. If you are checking the flop, I think checking the turn and river unless you improve is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against one opponent I see leading out on the flop. Against three this is a clear check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good reasoning... no it's not. Just b/c there is a K on the flop doesn't make it a clear check.

Re: QQ hand
 

Just to clarify, if there's an Ace on the flop you are most likely check folding against 4 opponents. With a K on a ragged board you are considering leading out on the flop. On what factors would you base your decision to bet versus check? How do stack sizes play in here?