Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

I had Villain (UTG) here read as a TAG, so when he bets into me again on the turn, I slowed down. Do I bet/fold this river? MP1 was a typical maroon.

All comments appreciated.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

I doubt that 3 really helped him. I think he's more likely to be playing a weaker K or maybe AT, and doesn't want to give up a free card to your flush draw. I raise the turn, call a 3-bet, and then see what happens on the river. The way you played it, I bet the river.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

If you read him as a TAG, his play is transparent.

He bet in to you with a pair or decent draw, bet the turn to not give a free card, and then gave up on the river. Raise the turn. At least bet the river.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you read him as a TAG, his play is transparent.

He bet in to you with a pair or decent draw, bet the turn to not give a free card, and then gave up on the river. Raise the turn. At least bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I thought his betting out meant "I'm not scared of getting raised." But a TAG here would go for the check-raise instead, right?

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you read him as a TAG, his play is transparent.

He bet in to you with a pair or decent draw, bet the turn to not give a free card, and then gave up on the river. Raise the turn. At least bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I thought his betting out meant "I'm not scared of getting raised." But a TAG here would go for the check-raise instead, right?

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His bet there means absolutely nothing, your TAG read is incorrect. If the 3 helped him, he would check/raise. If it didn't help him, he would check/raise. Your read should have been "guy who plays tight and saw a few episodes of the WSOP." Raise and take away the money he was going to buy Mike Sexton's book with.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Raise turn

Bet river

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Raise the turn and bet the river. FWIW i think your read on this player is wrong i can't imagine what hand he could have and play it this way. If he had a weak king he should have check/raised the flop or at least bet the river for value. If he had a draw he should have checked the turn and whatever he has he should have raised with pre flop from UTG unless this is just a super loose 5+ to every flop type game.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]


His bet there means absolutely nothing, your TAG read is incorrect. If the 3 helped him, he would check/raise. If it didn't help him, he would check/raise. Your read should have been "guy who plays tight and saw a few episodes of the WSOP." Raise and take away the money he was going to buy Mike Sexton's book with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really, REALLY need to work on my reading. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

This donk bet looks like he trying to find out if you were raising a FD or if you really have the K. His hand isn't strong enough to 3 bet you on the flop, so he probably has KJ or KQ. I'd raise and check the river (assuming MP called the turn if you had raised) if a spade or straight card comes, and bet it otherwise . The way you played it, you can bet this river as it's doubtful they'd go for a C-R after you only called the turn.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

A tag might not necessarily go for a C-R on this draw heavy board since there's a good chance you'd take the free card, but he would definitely 3bet the flop -- sending 2 back to MP -- if he had 2 pair or better. His play reeks of weakness.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you read him as a TAG, his play is transparent.

He bet in to you with a pair or decent draw, bet the turn to not give a free card, and then gave up on the river. Raise the turn. At least bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I thought his betting out meant "I'm not scared of getting raised." But a TAG here would go for the check-raise instead, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
His bet there means absolutely nothing, your TAG read is incorrect. If the 3 helped him, he would check/raise. If it didn't help him, he would check/raise. Your read should have been "guy who plays tight and saw a few episodes of the WSOP." Raise and take away the money he was going to buy Mike Sexton's book with.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true IMO; if the TAG has a TAG read on hero, it's perfectly valid to bet the turn here with a strong hand, with the intention of 3-betting. There's other conceivable scenarios where we can correctly SNG the turn here.

I'd still raise the turn though because this is a free card block or other weirdness often enough to justify a raise IMO.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Right, but what king of strong hand would the TAG only call hero's raise onthe flop?

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Redd you are correct if bet/call flop bet/three bet turn is a line that is possible but the only hands that are probably strong enough to take this line would be a set and if this player was really a tag he is raising pre flop with any PP that would have possibly made a set on this board. And of course we know he checked the river through. This is just a super easy value raise on the turn.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right, but what king of strong hand would the TAG only call hero's raise onthe flop?

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He'd be calling the flop with the explicit intention to bet-3bet the turn, because he wants to project that he's taking a stab. QJs comes to mind, and some weak-tight tags can limp 99 UTG.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And of course we know he checked the river through.

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This is results oriented. We didn't have this information on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
This is just a super easy value raise on the turn.

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I never said this wasn't a definite value-raise, but everyone seems to think it's impossible for the TAG to have a hand after donkbetting the turn. I'm saying that we could be drawing dead here, but this doesn't happen often enough not to value-raise.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Is that wise on such a dangerous board where he could split a straight, lose to a flush, or a full house? Is this the type of "forego exploiting a profitable opportunity on the flop if you can exploit a more profitable one on the turn" situation? I guess since his equity with a set or straight has increased greatly now that the turn is a rag.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And of course we know he checked the river through.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is results oriented. We didn't have this information on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
This is just a super easy value raise on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said this wasn't a definite value-raise, but everyone seems to think it's impossible for the TAG to have a hand after donkbetting the turn. I'm saying that we could be drawing dead here, but this doesn't happen often enough not to value-raise.

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Redd i agree with what your saying 99 or QJs are possible limping hands but if he is tag and three bet the turn this is about the easiest fold ever. It would never be correct to not raise this turn three handed and i know you agree with this. I was being cute with my check the river comment.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never said this wasn't a definite value-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Am I the only one who thinks K10s ?
He doesn't reraise the flop because he waits for a safe (no spade) turn card.

I would play this the same as hero (maybe too weak)

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never said this wasn't a definite value-raise

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I know you never said that and i love the bet/call bet/3-bet line oop against thinking aggressive players. I got to use it last night with top set against aces with a fish stuck in the middle. One more question if the tag had 3-bet the turn are you calling down or folding? This of course assumes our tag read is correct over a decent sample size.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had Villain (UTG) here read as a TAG, so when he bets into me again on the turn, I slowed down. Do I bet/fold this river? MP1 was a typical maroon.

All comments appreciated.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

At 3/6 on Pacific last night I had someone play 99 the same way. I just called down from the turn. But with the other player padding the pot I think you have to raise.

Re: Weak/tight to go into calldown mode?
 

Bet the river.