Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I'm playing the Borgata $20-40. Its $7 every half hour when changing dealers. It's around dinner time and the must move game is coming into the main game in droves. Two guys come in and say they paid at the must move table. The dealer is lost and has no control of the situation. We have 6 guys who've been at the main game. I pay.

When the dust settles, 2 guys are light and naturally, being the stand up guys they are, won't admit it. Dealer starts accusing guys, they're getting insulted, blah, blah, blah. The floor is called and the situation explained. They walk away saying they're going to the camera.

They come back 20 minutes later and tell the dealer drop the time. I ask about the 2 missing times. The floor tells me he's giving those 2 guys a break and, being I already paid, it doesn't concern me.

I can't believe what I'm hearing and tell him it's simple. Either we all pay time or none at all. There's no other fair way to do it. We all pay or none at all. He makes 2 guys (regulars) pay. They don't argue.

I found this handling and decision making by the floor of AC's top shelf casino/hotel to be ridiculously unprofessional and stupid. If he had any sense at all, he'd just say "Okay fella's, this one's on us" and remind his employees to do a better job of collecting the houses money.

Instead of putting me in a spot where I have to speak up for myself to keep from being screwed by others at the table.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I don't see how you were being screwed. There is no question that you had been at the table the whole time and owed time. It was unclear whether or not the csts from the must move table had paid or not, so the floor cut them a break. How does that constitute you getting screwed?

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

It's simple. Three clear points. One - pot isn't being raked. So when guys don't pay time and you do, they're doing more than beating the house. They're making a sucker out of you because they can win pots totally cost free while you're paying to play it.

Second - when it comes to public activities and entertainment that you pay for, there should be one set of rules for everyone. Whether it's allowing all people to play, no matter their color. Or charging everyone the same, no matter who they are.

Three - this is the most obvious. When you return something to Home Depot they never argue with you. Smart business. No wonder they're so successful. Borgata is a huge business, expanding their poker room and looking to take players away. I usually play at Taj. This would have been a good way to show they care more about the players than making $42 during a major mistake by their dealer. Make everyone pay or, better yet, eat it.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I agree that from a customer service standpoint they should have eaten it. But personally, as a player, I'm gonna give the must move cats the benefit of the doubt and not make a fuss about it. I'm gonna pay the time regardless of what their situation is. My ass has been there for the past half hour and there's no doubt about that, so I'm paying. Once you play the "I'm not paying if they don't" card, you're angle shooting. Besides, it was one round. It's not like management was going to give them a free pass for the rest of the night.

On a side note, $14/hour time charge on a 20/40 limit game... is this standard??? Sounds like highway robbery to me.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Unless there's more to the story, I think you're overreacting.

If a dealer fails to collect someone else's time once, it's the house's problem. It's not your job to make sure the house's money is correctly collected by the house's employees. Once is an oversight, let it go. If it's happening often or intentionally sure, mention it to the floor. Steal a blind from each of the guys who didn't pay if you're so bothered, but it seems terribly nitty to get so worked up about a one-time thing.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

agreed

you sound alot like my old lady sticking ur nose into places it doesnt belong

you do not benefit/ or lose out from whether or not the players just sat down had pay there rake @ the new or the old table

just holding up the game by whining about something that doesnt really effect you

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

You were (and are) wrong on all levels. The fact that someone is given a free half hour of play has no effect on you and you should just relax and STFU. They owe you nothing and you were not taken advantage of you. They are not shorting the pot so they are not making a sucker out of you -- in fact, in a small way it helps you because their time money remains on the table for you to win.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

This is one of the most ridiculous situations of all times. First off, the collection procedure requires that each person's time is placed in front of them, just like a bet, so the dealer can verify it's the right amount, then bring it all in at the same time. There should be no opportunity for people to angle shoot, and there should be NO doubt who paid, and who didn't.

Next, the floor's decision to let the regulars slide after going to the tape (if he even did go to the tape) is absolutely reprehensible. The only acceptable reason for anyone not to pay time at this table is if they paid time for this half hour already at the other table, which should be easy to ascertain by asking the other dealer. Failure to collect their time is a major violation of the floor's duty to protect the house's drop. If upper management or surveillance spotted this debacle, I wouldn't be surprised if the floor got fired over it.

Finally, what a couple of scumbags to claim they paid time at the other table when they actually DIDN'T. Multiple compounding errors here, especially these two, who should be repeatedly kicked in the nuts, THEN thrown out of the casino (head first).

al

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I have to agree with SA here. Good points.

al

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
Failure to collect their time is a major violation of the floor's duty to protect the house's drop. If upper management or surveillance spotted this debacle, I wouldn't be surprised if the floor got fired over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're not management. You're a player. So why would you give a f-ck whether or not they f-cked themselves over for 14 bucks?

Jesus, let the house do their job and just play cards. Why must there always be 1 or 2 busybodies at every table?

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]

Jesus, let the house do their job and just play cards. Why must there always be 1 or 2 busybodies at every table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why must their be people who think they don't have to pay time? I pay time, and I get it out there promptly. Why do people try to avoid it unless they are, by the rules, entitled to avoid it?

The house does need to make money so they keep spreading the games. If people figure out how to avoid the time charge, then the house makes less money. Which means the house will jack the time charge or just remove a few tables and throw in slots since those actually make some money. That hurts me in the long run.

Just pay yer time and shut up, ya nits.

Regards,

T

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's simple. Three clear points. One - pot isn't being raked. So when guys don't pay time and you do, they're doing more than beating the house. They're making a sucker out of you because they can win pots totally cost free while you're paying to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong.

It doesn't effect rational behavior on either end for what SHOULD be obvious reasons.


You're being a bitter piece of [censored] if you cause a stink over this. The floor managers don't care. If you're that concerned about the integrity of the casino rules, you should contact upper management later and alarm them that (shock) ONE OF THE PIT BOSSES DIDNT COLLECT TWO GUYS' SESSION FEE!!

You're neither in a position to demand anything, nor are you effected by the decision in any material way. You're just a bitter, sad mother fucker is all.

[ QUOTE ]
The house does need to make money so they keep spreading the games. If people figure out how to avoid the time charge, then the house makes less money. Which means the house will jack the time charge or just remove a few tables and throw in slots since those actually make some money. That hurts me in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a [censored] joke? Why dont you complain about people not toking the crew for their fair share. When the aggregate level of "tokes" decline, labour will demand a proportionately higher wages and the increased cost to the casino may be transferred to players in the form of higher session fees. Oh [censored].

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I AM management, newbie. I'm a floorman. I've also been a player, dealer and floorman since long before you became a "newbie" with 44 posts. So I see this problem from all perspectives, not just that of a player.

Giving regulars special treatment, like allowing their angle shot lies like "I paid at the other table" to fly, is flat out terrible. While I might not personally say anything if I was a player in the game, I can't blame anyone else who chooses to be offended by lopsided treatment standards of tourists and regulars, or by floormen who allow obviously weak angle shots to fly. What's going to happen if there's a REAL decision to be made with this guy's buddies in the pot? Who's going to get the decision?

al

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Al -- I won't say anything about kicking you this time, but I am surprised that you agree with the OP.

The floor screwed up in a way that has no direct effect on the game and another player should not intervene to protect the house. This is one case where a floor's mistake benefits one (or two) players, but hurts nobody.

(1) The fact that another player is given a break on time for a 1/2 hour does not make you a sucker. If so, you are a sucker everytime you sit in a room that has props.

(2) There are often different sets of rules for different patrons in the entertainment industries. At a restaurant, if you get a free bottle of wine does not mean that every other table is entitled to a free bottle. When you go to a show you may pay full price or get a discount or get comped.

(3) I agree that customer relations is important -- but if a screw up benefits one player, you should not necessarily be entitled to the same benefit. At Home Depot -- if the cashier gives the customer in front of you an extra $10 in change, are you entitled to an extra $10? Of course not.

While it is best to treat every player the same in a perfect world, this world is far from perfect. Next time you might benefit from an error while the guy next to you doesn't. If you are not being cheated by the error, you let it slide.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

It really doesnt matter what position you hold elsewhere. You have no personal interest vested in the outcome of whether they pay their session fee.

They're angle shooting against the casino, not you, and the casino already realized what happened and isn't concerned.

Do you really think you have the authority to overule management? Their word is final and binding. If they did change their mind, it's to shut you up, not because they genuinely care about what you're saying.

You represent the spirit of the annoying old man who people are praying will die already.

Who the hell calls people "newbies"? What relationship does the number of posts someone has on an internet forum have with whether or not they're right? You're wrong, and you have more posts than I'll likely ever have.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I'm well aware of your employment. When I said "you're a player" it was not directed at you in particular, rather the "you" referes to the whining/bitching player in this example. My point stands -- as a player, worry about playing the game, not about how badly management is f-cking things up. Given your position you are obviously biased on this issue. I think you're also looking at things from the wrong perspective. The issue here is not whether the house did or did not make a mistake -- the issue is whether or not it's the duty of the player to hold up the game and bitch about something that has no effect on him whatsoever.

Oh, and your use of my newbie status as an attempt to berate me or challenge my credibility is laughable and quite juvenile. What, do I have to get 1000 posts under my belt before I can hang with the big boys? Ha ha ha ...

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
The house does need to make money so they keep spreading the games. If people figure out how to avoid the time charge, then the house makes less money. Which means the house will jack the time charge or just remove a few tables and throw in slots since those actually make some money. That hurts me in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a stretch. Not collecting $7 bucks on one occasion from two players because they might have already paid is a long way from the situation you described. Management would have to be a complete joke for that to happen.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who the hell calls people "newbies"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, with 44 posts, his status is "newbie." It'd be the same as if I called you, with your 56 posts, "journeyman."

The point I was making was that he jumped to a conclusion regarding me, which was false. Learn a little about who you're conversing with and maybe you'll appreciate their point of view a little better than you thought.

In addition, I already responded in another post in this thread that I personally probably wouldn't say a word if this happened to me, but that the OP did in fact have a point, and I wouldn't blame him for speaking up.

As someone who's involved in decisions, disputes, and managerial issues every day, I tend to shut my mouth and let whatever happens happen when I am in another house, regardless of what my opinion might be on the matter, or what my decision might be in the same situation. But this is 2+2, and we debate such things here, thus my opinion is voiced.

al

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

This post...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...c=#Post3596663

has the answers you seek. I don't want to type it all out twice. It's in this thread if you're too lazy to click on the link, so you'll probably read it anyhow. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Failure to collect their time is a major violation of the floor's duty to protect the house's drop. If upper management or surveillance spotted this debacle, I wouldn't be surprised if the floor got fired over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're not management. You're a player. So why would you give a f-ck whether or not they f-cked themselves over for 14 bucks?

Jesus, let the house do their job and just play cards. Why must there always be 1 or 2 busybodies at every table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and clueless busybodies at that. Seems oftentimes that the ones who scream the loudest are also the most clueless.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
I personally probably wouldn't say a word if this happened to me, but that the OP did in fact have a point, and I wouldn't blame him for speaking up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I also think the flaming of the OP was a bit too much. Another example of people saying things on the internet that they would never have the guts to say to someone's face.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I'm sure arguing the point would cost you more money than it would ever gain you.
If you succeed in having your time refunded, you gain 0.175 BB/hr for the coming hour. You will likely gain such an advantage (or even more) through at least one of the following:
a) being dealt cards instead of arguing the point;
b) paying attention to your game and your table; and
c) not having other players dislike you.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna give the must move cats the benefit of the doubt and not make a fuss about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must have misunderstood my long, rambling post. It wasn't the must move guys. It was 2 guys I had been playing with for a couple of hours who figured it was okay to take this half hour off and let the others pay. And yeah, it's $14 an hr to play $20-40.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

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You're being a bitter piece of [censored] if you cause a stink over this

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't get past there. Funny. Thanks.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Thanks Al. That response was a little better than me being a bitter piece of sh*t for contesting the matter.

Wow
 

I find it funny how many players say they don't care if they pay time and others don't. When you play a lot of live poker (4-5 times a week) paying time sucks. I guess it's me. Funny though. Some guys will play pots agianst you who intentionally haven't paid for their seat and you don't care that you have. Okay.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

The situation at Commerce was even worse before they went to a drop instead of a time collection. I paid at that table, I'm a new player, I came from a smaller stakes game, I'll pay that rate . . . It was amazing to me that guys could put $480 into a pot with garbage but then would do handstands to save a dollar in collection.

It was even better in the dark ages when we used to deal ourselves. Not being as upright then as I am now, if there was a short table, I would switch seats every half hour and tell the collection person I was a new player. She'd check her card and sure enough, that seat was empty a half hour ago.

Raking the pot works better as there are no such arguments.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I don't think the floor just simply decided to let 2 guys not pay the collection. By the time the floor got there he couldn't confirm who it was that was light. This is the dealer's fault, but this problem is also partially caused by players who for some stupid reason can't simply place there chips in a neat stack in front of them. Players start tossing chips around making their own change etc.

When the floor called surveillance do you really think surveillance told the floor that they could tell who was light and that then the floor after going through the trouble of calling surveillance simply said okay I'll them go this time. The truth is that surveillance either couldn't determine who it was or was to busy to look.

A lot of people think that surveillance can see everything that happens clearly. But this often isn't the case. Often times a call goes to surveillance and they are unable to determine exactly what happened.

Now your proposal is that anytime the collection is light and the house can't figure out who it was that was short, nobody pays any collection. Don't you think that will promote angle shooting, players tossing in chips mixing them with other players chips trying to get a freebie?

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the floor just simply decided to let 2 guys not pay the collection. By the time the floor got there he couldn't confirm who it was that was light. This is the dealer's fault, but this problem is also partially caused by players who for some stupid reason can't simply place there chips in a neat stack in front of them. Players start tossing chips around making their own change etc.

When the floor called surveillance do you really think surveillance told the floor that they could tell who was light and that then the floor after going through the trouble of calling surveillance simply said okay I'll them go this time. The truth is that surveillance either couldn't determine who it was or was to busy to look.

A lot of people think that surveillance can see everything that happens clearly. But this often isn't the case. Often times a call goes to surveillance and they are unable to determine exactly what happened.

Now your proposal is that anytime the collection is light and the house can't figure out who it was that was short, nobody pays any collection. Don't you think that will promote angle shooting, players tossing in chips mixing them with other players chips trying to get a freebie?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If you had evidence that they didn't pay, that's one thing, but it seems like you're just assuming these guys didn't pay, which I think you don't have any right to get up in arms about.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

I don't understand what your post is about at all. You play 20-40 and the best thing you can think to post about is a floor decision that is none of your business over a measly seven dollars?

Think about this. Lets say you are at the movie ticket line, and just before you pay for the ticket, you hear a patron next to you claim that he lost his ticket for the movie, and wants to get in because he already paid. The manager is brought over, and they agree that its ok for him to get in for free.
How do you respond? Do you explain to the manager that you are a much more loyal customer than the patron in question, or do you demand "equal treatment" and then proclaim that everyone should get in for free?

Or lets say that you are playing in a game and you are pretty sure than one of your opponents is a shill. Do you then demand that the house stake you, give you health care, and pay you a set hourly rate?

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Easy fix here--- take the time charge out of the first pot that sees a flop------
In the bigger games at the Bellagio this is what we do and have had no problems

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

It would seem to me that taking a $70 time charge out of a $10/$20 pot might be a bit much and can kill the action.

If you have a hand with a raise and a call (both blinds fold) pot is $55, flop comes bet and call pot is $75. Turn comes bet and call pot is $115. River comes bet and call pot is $155. Minus $70 time charge winner gets $85. Winner put $70 into that pot net win $15.

Time pots are fine, but this may be too much for this size game.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Hey SA, I just want to point out that the behavior of the floor and the two regulars makes it pretty clear that you were right.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

If it wasn't obvious why did the floor and the players relent so easily?

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
This post...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...c=#Post3596663


[/ QUOTE ]

use the url tag next time so you dont fuddle up the thread, you friggin' newbie

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

The 10-20 time charge would be $50 total (5 per player per half). Typically, smaller games using timepots don't take it all from one pot (actually, neither do the 40-80 games at Borgata). In the 10-20 example sited, it will typically be 25 on the first pot of 100 or more and then 25 on the second pot that size. In the 80 game (10 per half per player), it's typically 100 on 800.

Jeff

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Preliminarily, I'd probably have kept my mouth shut.

However, I've got to say that there are a lot of problems with time collection at the Borgata 20-40 game. This stems principally from the need to make change for players without white chips. Sometimes the players start scooping other people's time to speed things up, and things get screwed up. Other times dealers don't collect (or make change) in order, and they can't figure out who they missed when they are $7 short. The Borgata really should tell dealers to collect and make change in a set order around the table.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think about this. Lets say you are at the movie ticket line, and just before you pay for the ticket, you hear a patron next to you claim that he lost his ticket for the movie, and wants to get in because he already paid. The manager is brought over, and they agree that its ok for him to get in for free.
How do you respond? Do you explain to the manager that you are a much more loyal customer than the patron in question, or do you demand "equal treatment" and then proclaim that everyone should get in for free?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you pay time? If you do, I have no idea how you could possibly think this is even slightly close to an accurate analogy.

Paying for the right to compete and gamble for pots is something entirely different from what you described.

sfer hit the nail on the head in one of his responses. As soon as I objected, the floor pointed out who was short. Those two guys immediately put up their time and didn't say boo. What does that tell you?

When you're paying 75-150 a day in time more than a few days a week, not including tips, the issue of fairness seems simple to me.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

And those are certainly workable ways of doing it. Of course the original poster told us that the time charge is $7 per half so thats why I used that figure. Sure you can use systems to pay the time out of multiple pots but quite honestly is that really eaiser than just having each player pay the time on the dealer change.

Re: Argueing with the floor about time collection
 

Time pots are common and are always done in 2 pots. $20-40 is a time pot over $200. 10 players at $70 is first 2 pots over $200 pay $35 each to whoever put up the time. I'm always in on time pots. I find it funny how many guys you can play $20-40 with who don't know what a chop or time pot is.