How much edge does position give you?
 

Average player limps in MP. It folds to me in the CO or button with KJ. I raise this every time, even though i know KJ does not have positive equity against his range. I will also do it with worse hands sometimes. WHen someone limps, typically it is not a hand they want to showdown without improvement, so i think a big edge comes from having the iniative. Anyone thought on this?

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

You are right.
-James

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

Did you pokerstove this? Why don't you think we have equity against his range? Seems like we're usually up against a small pocket pair or a suited connector type hand, many of which we have dominated.

[ QUOTE ]
WHen someone limps, typically it is not a hand they want to showdown without improvement, so i think a big edge comes from having the iniative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really big part of it. Much of the profit raising here comes from all the flops that go check bet fold when you completely whiff.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

Yeah i didn't pokerstove it, i was just estimating that it would be easy for someone to limp Ax or KQ, but our equity isn't horrible i'm guessing. What is the bottom range of hands you guys tend to raise the button with after an average limper?

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

I make this raise a lot to against an average limper from the CO and button. I think it's fine as long as your not constantly having to show it down.

but it also really depends on the limper too. Depending on how loose and weak they are, I would raise down to A8s and even QJo against a weak limper in MP.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Average player limps in MP. It folds to me in the CO or button with KJ. I raise this every time, even though i know KJ does not have positive equity against his range. I will also do it with worse hands sometimes. WHen someone limps, typically it is not a hand they want to showdown without improvement, so i think a big edge comes from having the iniative. Anyone thought on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how you get to be 30/20 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

I have been three-betting AJo alot recently against ok/not quite tight players raising from MP. I would have folded in the BB. Position and the lead is worth a ton.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

Ah come on Darryn, i'm like 18/12 in full games [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm only nuts shorthanded. Seriously though, the main objective here is to get an idea of what people's raising standards are here, as its difficult to assign EV to your hand given people's wide limping ranges.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah come on Darryn, i'm like 18/12 in full games [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm only nuts shorthanded. Seriously though, the main objective here is to get an idea of what people's raising standards are here, as its difficult to assign EV to your hand given people's wide limping ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well what do you define as an "average" player?

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

Lets say he's a typical 28/12 player who is little too loose and a little to passive. He doesnt make good folds, doesnt understand his hand values as well as he should etc...

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say he's a typical 28/12 player who is little too loose and a little to passive. He doesnt make good folds, doesnt understand his hand values as well as he should etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I think his hand range is basically all hands that do not dominate KJo. AJ, KQ, etc. would all be raising. I think you're looking at a bunch of suited and pair type hands, probably ranging from Axs to suited one gappers.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been three-betting AJo alot recently against ok/not quite tight players raising from MP. I would have folded in the BB. Position and the lead is worth a ton.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this retarded? If your AJo has value enough to reraise in position it should have enough value to call 1 bet OOP against a "not quite tight" player. Who folds there?

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

Not me.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

I don't like the showdown value of my hand nearly as much as I like the folding equity I pick up by 3-betting. Though in fairness perhaps I should be calling in the BB. I think I am significantly more likely to end the hand on the flop if I 3-bet, whereas if I call in the BB, I'm not going to have as good an idea of where I am postflop, and I'll be OOP. I'll talk more about this after dinner... the basic idea is 3-betting ajo again someone whose range is 55+ jts+ A9+ and is going to fold too much postflop is good. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] This is a fairly specific situation, against a fairly specific opponent type, but its come up 3 times this week where I'm sure it was right.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Average player limps in MP. It folds to me in the CO or button with KJ. I raise this every time, even though i know KJ does not have positive equity against his range. I will also do it with worse hands sometimes. WHen someone limps, typically it is not a hand they want to showdown without improvement, so i think a big edge comes from having the iniative. Anyone thought on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a good raise because:
1) You have position.
2) It's likely that you have an equity edge.
3) If you have a slight equity deficiency, but you fold out the blinds, you've gained.
4) Or if you have a slight deficiency, but the blinds will defend with rag-rag-off, you've also gained.
5) Lastly, like you mentioned, there's times when you can take it down on the flop when your opponent misses.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

So here is the opponent who I think it is right to muck AJo in the BB, but three-bet on the button:
16.94/12.27/2.40, went to SD:33.12, won at SD:60.78, 2k hands

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

You seriously need to elaborate on why you fold this in the BB.

Re: How much edge does position give you?
 

I think I lose more than .5 BB on average if I call here. If I hit my hand, my general line is check raise the flop, lead the turn. I guess I could check-raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet more here, but currently when I am continuing beyond the flop I end up leading the turn, and not being comfortable folding to the raise. I end up paying off a turn raise and river bet. I think I just don't play well OOP against this type of player because I showdown too much, and can't confidently change that in this situation.