interesting WPT tournament hand
 

major TV tournament.

Hero is UTG w/ 7k.
Blinds 150-300 a25. Hour levels.
Hero tosses out a 1k chip intending to raise, but he is an internet donkey playing in his first live tournament and doesn't know the one chip rule. everyone at the table knew his intent.

He has AKo and a very tight (prob weak tight) image.

He gets 5 callers. 6 to the flop w/ ~2k in the pot.

Flop is KQx rainbow

He bets out 1200. Young aggressive name pro next to act flat calls. Everyone else folds.

Pot is 4400 and hero has 5500 left.

Turn is a small card putting two spades on board (no spades for hero).

Hero checks.

Young aggressive pro immediately slides out four 1k chips (4000).

Hero?

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Hero curses himself out for betting instead of checkraising the flop, then figures there's a 3:1 chance of being good here (not to mention the ace outs) so this is a no brainer call after which he can go cry himself to sleep in a side game.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Hero?

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Pukes. Is the king a spade? Makes a bit of a difference cause villian could concievably have KJs and the like, JTs/JTo is also possible if he is really agressive. The flat call does show quite a bit of strength because hero did intend to raise UTG which narrows his range to AA-99 AK-AQs I am guessing, once he bets the flop 6way villian could narrow that down further to QQ-AA/AK. This would be a pretty clear fold vs a non "aggressive young pro". I think I puke and push in the heat of the moment here, but in retrospect a fold is close and might even be better.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

I agree with the checkraise btw

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Given the reads I don't see how you can call this, but I'm having trouble putting the pro on a hand. If everyone knew he meant to raise pre-flop UTG and he's tight, AK is the minimum they have him on, and I don't see why a good pro would try and push a weak/tightie off a big hand on the come, it just doesn't make sense. So I think he can beat AA with this move.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

You really want to try a check-raise in a 6 way hand? WHat if there is a bet and a raise before it getsback to you? WHat if it's checked around? Heads up with the aggressive guy I like it, but with 2 blinds who haven't paid to play I really don't.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Hero tosses out a 1k chip intending to raise, but he is an internet donkey playing in his first live tournament and doesn't know the one chip rule

[/ QUOTE ] can someone explain the one chip rule no I never become said donkey......

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

If you toss one chip into the pot *without* announcing raise, you have just called even if you threw a 5000 chip in after a bet of 50.

You can avoid being an internet donkey one of two ways:

a. Always announce any action you make.
b. Always use multiple chips.

I know these things b/c I was the internet donkey for one hand at the WSOP this year. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Later,
Che

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Hero tosses out a 1k chip intending to raise, but he is an internet donkey playing in his first live tournament and doesn't know the one chip rule

[/ QUOTE ] can someone explain the one chip rule no I never become said donkey......

[/ QUOTE ]

say blinds are 150-300. you are utg. you toss out a single 1k chips w/out saying anything, it's just a call. if you toss it out and say raise before it lands, it's a raise to 1k. If you say some other amount less than 1k and toss out the 1k chip, it's that amount.

Let's say that the utg minraises to 600 and you toss out a single 5k chip w/out saying anything, it's a call. if you simply say raise and toss out the single chip, it's a raise to 5k.

anytime you toss out more than one chip, it's automatically that amount (assuming it was a legal raise).

This only occurs when the action has been opened. Preflop, the action has been opened by the blinds, so it's a call.

Let's say that there are 3 people in the hand on the flop. You are first to act. You toss out a 5k chip into a 900 chip pot, it's 5k to go.

got it?

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

table knows his intent preflop, so they have to put him on a pretty tight range of hands... AA/KK/AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/1010 most likely

He bets out 1.2k into a field of 6 players... would he seriously do this if he had whiffed the flop with his underpair? most likely not, so the table can narrow his range even further.

He gets flat called, given the information freely passed around preflop?

Heros dilemma is that there is only one draw out there... 10J.. the rest of the pro's calling hands are going to be made hands, and the pro *knows* what the UTG donks range is, so any made hand is most likely going to be a set/2 pair
for villain

I don't think hero can put enough confidence in the hope that villain has 10J, to justify calling here with one pair.

one thing that is quite important is the villains relative position to the UTG donk, as the further away he is, the less likely he would be to have KK/QQ...

getting 2/1 here... its most likely he is looking at 10J or QK/QQ/KK... against this *likely* range, id lean towards advocating a fold for hero

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

If there's a bet and raise when it gets back, you play poker, but that's actually a better reason for checkraising than betting (you find out there's a potential problem for 1200 less chips.) I'm not worried about a 6 way KQx pot getting checked through at all.

KK for the pro
 

Do you guys really have KK in the pro's range? No one is going to raise without a monster given UTG's action and the opportunity to take a cheap flop with massive implied odds, so KK needs to raise to avoid playing a flop against 6 opponents.

I'm not sure about QQ, but I'd be very surprised to see KK. KQ and JT are the most likely hands for villain IMHO.

Edit: A set of x's is also a strong possibility.

Later,
Che

Re: KK for the pro
 

yeah, i was a bit reluctant to include KK here.. although if he was first to act after the UTG donk, he might be calling to try and induce players after him to raise it up.. squeeze play yadda..pot steal yadda, or he mite just want to conceal his hand, and not expect it to have gone 6 handed.

The further it gets from the Donk, the less likely KK will be

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

The hand has been biased by the poster. If you had included the specific cards, it helps to conjure all the nastiest monsters.

Hero pushes.
Hero has TPTK against what is most likely JT or a pair with 2 spades. I don't know the 1 chip rule myself, but I do know that donkey or not, you will look like a complete fool if you fold the best hand on TV and will have to face yourself everyday.

If he's behind, hero probably has outs, otherwise he went down with a respectable hand.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

I think the answer is very dependent on the previous action on the table. The internet donk may have a weak-tight image, but does he have the "ability to fold tptk getting 3-1 against a known aggro player" image? It sounds ridiculous, but I think it is very important to know exactly how people have seen him play.

Also, it depends who the name pro is. I think someone like Tuan Li, would have a wider range then a (uh... better) player like Daniel Negreanu, who probably wouldn't give the internet donk credit to fold AK (which he very obviously has on the turn). I know there is only so much that can be learned from TV poker, but if the name pro was say... David Williams, I insta-call (If only because of that Q7o hand when he was HU vs Negreanu).

I really doubt the name pro would be flat calling a 1200 bet with 4 players to act behind him, with something like KJ, so I think he either has set/2 pr, or a semi-bluff draw TJ type hand.

This hand would be much easier at the table IMO.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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I don't know the 1 chip rule myself, but I do know that donkey or not, you will look like a complete fool if you fold the best hand on TV and will have to face yourself everyday.


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Judging by the levels, this was not a hand played on TV. It probably was day 1 or 2 of a WPT event, in which only the final table is televised. He doesn't have to worry about his buddies making fun of him for folding here.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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If there's a bet and raise when it gets back that's actually a better reason for checkraising

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Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

First off, the UTG player is a huge donkey for not saying raise. You'd think that he/she would learn his lesson, but I bet you this same problem shows up in a later live tournament.

As for the hand, I am putting the aggro kid squarely on KJ and instantly moving all in. But then again, that's just my read, I could be wrong.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Just to clarify, the rule's in place so casinos don't have to make change. Verbal declaration = key in live games.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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As for the hand, I am putting the aggro kid squarely on KJ and instantly moving all in.

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I suppose it's possible, but I think KJ is very unlikely, and would be a horribly played hand by the "pro." He knows the internet donk meant to raise, and therefore wants to play a hand with big implied odds, and NOT KJ. KJ has horrible reverse implied odds (as can be seen in this hand), and if he is playing KJ its KJs. I think knowing the openers range, I'd fold KJ in an instant on this flop if the internet donk bet into 5 players, and I was next to act. If I was closing the action... yeah I'd probably call and re-evaluate the turn. But the chances are way too high that someone has Kx(x being the other card, not a random kicker), KQ, or xx.

The weak tight internet donk will not be betting into 5 players there without a hand that has KJ crushed. If the "pro" doesnt see that, I'd like to see his "pro" badge.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

I think it's hilarious that this happens in 10k buy-in events.

Pro's range, IMHO, is very tight. I see this as an easy fold. Pro really can't call here without TJ or a hand that already has AK beat. I can't see pro betting the turn here with TJ into a confused and frustrated internet donk with TPTK (at least not if he's thinking). Obviously, hero called, but I think that if I were pro, I expect hero to call this a large percentage of the time with his two most likely hands (AA,AK).

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Also, what does everyone think of hero's flat call assuming he has a set of x's?

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Pro has a set, maybe KQ. I suppose it's possible that Pro could be holding KJ/KT/Kx (although those holdings seem less likely given hero's ROH and the stack sizes). It seems to me that Pro would not flat call ATF with 4 players yet to act on a board like that without having something big. If it were heads-up or 3-way the pro might call to take the pot from the weak-tightie, but with 4 players yet to act I think he has something that beats TPTK. I think Pro slow-plays a set here (less likely to slowplay top 2-pair) ATF and raises a marginal hand (to isolate against hero). I think hero should fold here despite the delicious pot odds.

If pro outplayed me here than I gotta give him credit for being ballsy enough to call into 4-opponents ATF and then to put in a big bet ATT when hero could have top set, second set, an overpair, or a hand too good to laydown. If pro did steal this pot with a worse hand then it was a very nice play, and I'd rather pay off a nice play than blow off most of my chips with TPTK in a 6-way pot.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Hero curses himself out for betting instead of checkraising the flop, then figures there's a 3:1 chance of being good here (not to mention the ace outs) so this is a no brainer call after which he can go cry himself to sleep in a side game.

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Err, hes getting worse than 2-1... not 3-1.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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The hand has been biased by the poster. If you had included the specific cards, it helps to conjure all the nastiest monsters.

Hero pushes.
Hero has TPTK against what is most likely JT or a pair with 2 spades. I don't know the 1 chip rule myself, but I do know that donkey or not, you will look like a complete fool if you fold the best hand on TV and will have to face yourself everyday.

If he's behind, hero probably has outs, otherwise he went down with a respectable hand.

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i don't understand your post at all.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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The hand has been biased by the poster. If you had included the specific cards, it helps to conjure all the nastiest monsters.

Hero pushes.
Hero has TPTK against what is most likely JT or a pair with 2 spades. I don't know the 1 chip rule myself, but I do know that donkey or not, you will look like a complete fool if you fold the best hand on TV and will have to face yourself everyday.

If he's behind, hero probably has outs, otherwise he went down with a respectable hand.

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i don't understand your post at all.

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I think he means the X is important. Is it a 2 or an 8? Theres a difference. I assumed since you neglected to mention the card, it was like a 2 or a 4, not an 8 (a worse card for the hero)

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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First off, the UTG player is a huge donkey for not saying raise. You'd think that he/she would learn his lesson, but I bet you this same problem shows up in a later live tournament.

As for the hand, I am putting the aggro kid squarely on KJ and instantly moving all in. But then again, that's just my read, I could be wrong.

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i know that you are a fan of the insta-all-in w/out thinking when you sense weakness, but is this really the move here?

As for the 1 chip rule, yeah, hero is a donk who plays too much online.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Kick myself and fold.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Yes, like Ansky said,

also I thought the hand was televised.

Hero still should push. JT is just as likely as KQ or XX. The Harrington 10% is still possible (small pocket or something), and villain probably has hero squarely on AK and won't pay him off if he fans the river when he is drawing.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Yes, like Ansky said,

also I thought the hand was televised.

Hero still should push. JT is just as likely as KQ or XX. The Harrington 10% is still possible (small pocket or something), and villain probably has hero squarely on AK and won't pay him off if he fans the river when he is drawing.

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let's say it was a five.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

he has a set of 5s~ [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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he has a set of 5s~ [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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haha.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Hero still should push. JT is just as likely as KQ or XX. The Harrington 10% is still possible (small pocket or something), and villain probably has hero squarely on AK and won't pay him off if he fans the river when he is drawing.

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This doesn't make much sense.

Do you think the villian is putting together an elaborate bluff, putting his amateur opponent on TPTK, then cold calling with a random pair, with 4 players left to act behind him??? Villain has SOMETHING here. Maybe its TJ maybe its KJ, but a mid pocket, or air is incrdibly unlikely.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Yes, like Ansky said,

also I thought the hand was televised.

Hero still should push. JT is just as likely as KQ or XX. The Harrington 10% is still possible (small pocket or something), and villain probably has hero squarely on AK and won't pay him off if he fans the river when he is drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]Couldn't agree with this any less.

Yes, TJ is almost as possible as KQ/XX, but you're throwing away every single read if you think there's anywhere near a 10% chance it's a bluff. And if it is a bluff, it will be with TJ or a "bluff" with KJ (hands pro knows are beat).

I think one time I heard a rule about never trying to bluff someone who doesn't know what's going, and there's been nothing shared so far to show that Internet Donk is capable of realizing what a good bluff this would be if Pro had air (or relative air). The impression I've gotten is that Donk has tunnel vission with TPTK and favorable odds.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Hero folds.

Look at it from the Pro's point of view:

1. He sees the donk try to raise UTG, signalling a strong hand.

2. He then sees the donk bet into a huge field - he is not doing this with JJ. Pro has to put him on at least top pair.

3. Donk checks the turn, signalling weakness (or maybe inducing a bluff so he can blast any sort of draw out of the hand with a check-raise?). In order for the pro's bet to work he has to believe that either his hand is best, or that the donk will be able to make a fairly big lay down. Granted the weak-tight read could inspire him to make this play, but the chances of getting called here are way too good for him NOT to have a hand that beats TPTK.

My two cents,

Sam

Edit: What is the pro's stack like? If he can make this play without getting himself in trouble, I think there is a better chance the donk is ahead. If he's got a similar stack to the donk, I'm inclined to believe him.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Hero curses himself out for betting instead of checkraising the flop, then figures there's a 3:1 chance of being good here (not to mention the ace outs) so this is a no brainer call after which he can go cry himself to sleep in a side game.

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Err, hes getting worse than 2-1... not 3-1.

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Hero's stack is all going in, he's getting about 2.8:1 or so.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

Maybe,

a pocket pair still has outs for starters.

This hand is about fold equity against a tight player. I have no idea what villain's capabilities are here but hero has backed away from the hand (after leading the flop), and villain doesn't need a hand to represent KQ or (55). Hero is probably uncomfortable for having missed the opportunity to raise BTF. Essentially I think the possibility of the Harrington 10% is not out of the question.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Hero curses himself out for betting instead of checkraising the flop, then figures there's a 3:1 chance of being good here (not to mention the ace outs) so this is a no brainer call after which he can go cry himself to sleep in a side game.

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Err, hes getting worse than 2-1... not 3-1.

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Hero's stack is all going in, he's getting about 2.8:1 or so.

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Since the bet is essentially all in, lets just say villain is betting heros 5500, and the pot is 4500. thats 10000-5500. Worse than 2-1. What am I missing.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Maybe,

a pocket pair still has outs for starters.

This hand is about fold equity against a tight player. I have no idea what villain's capabilities are here but hero has backed away from the hand (after leading the flop), and villain doesn't need a hand to represent KQ or (55). Hero is probably uncomfortable for having missed the opportunity to raise BTF. Essentially I think the possibility of the Harrington 10% is not out of the question.

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You honestly think the villain called with say... 99? There is really no logic behind your reasoning, you are just saying its possible. I can't honestly beleive the villain would call with junk with 4 people behind him, with the intention of blowing the internet donk off of tptk on a blank turn.

Re: interesting WPT tournament hand
 

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Since the bet is essentially all in, lets just say villain is betting heros 5500, and the pot is 4500. thats 10000-5500. Worse than 2-1. What am I missing.

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Any of my posts about math/pot odds being exponentially worse before 6 PM-ish since that's when my day basically starts [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Heh, at least I don't add that way in games.

Umm, 2:1...makes it closer. I think I can outthink myself and fold, but I don't like either very much and really want to checkraise the flop.