Is this shooting an angle?
 

Borgata, 10/20 yesterday.

2 players remaining on the river. First player checks, button reaches for chips (I don't think he picked them up yet, just lifted his hand up toward his stack), first player beats him into the pot with a call.

Button then says "I check". First player takes his call back and wins the pot, then has some choice words for the button.

Thoughts?

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

If all button did was motion toward his stack without touching his chips I can't see this being an angle shoot. He may have been getting ready to scratch his nose.

Sounds like the first player was a WPT 'expert' and was trying to show up the button and act like a 'playa'.

Too bad his move backfired [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

1st player is a douche. He can't wait 5 seconds for the button to make a decision? If he lost a bet is it nobody's fault but his own.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

It seems like the first player was trying to head off a bluff from the button, that's why he would call before the button bet.

Since he was successful, why would he be pissed? If he had the best hand and callled instantly because he knew it, why didn't he bet or check raise?

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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If he had the best hand and callled instantly because he knew it, why didn't he bet or check raise?

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Because he's a dumbass.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

The first player took the pot with bottom pair, the button didn't show.

I think he was pissed because he should have (in his mind) gotten an additional $20 off the failed button bluff.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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The first player took the pot with bottom pair, the button didn't show.

I think he was pissed because he should have (in his mind) gotten an additional $20 off the failed button bluff.

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That's ridiculous. From your description, the button did absolutely nothing that could be considered "action". For all the 1st player knew, the button might have been about to shuffle some chips while he thought about his move.

It's the 1st player who was angle-shooting, trying to force the button to commit to an action he hadn't made yet.

-Mike

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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First player checks, button reaches for chips (I don't think he picked them up yet, just lifted his hand up toward his stack)

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Caro's videos explain to do exactly this to sometimes get a tell.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

First player = douche

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

Not an angle. If the chips didnt pass the bet line, its not a bet.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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First player checks, button reaches for chips (I don't think he picked them up yet, just lifted his hand up toward his stack),

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Even if he picks up the chips, it's still not a bet.

Depending on the cardroom, a forward motion with chips in hand may still not be considered a bet.

Even further, bringing out the stack of chips, keeping them in his hand, and tapping the table with them to indicate a "check" can still be considered a "check" (it is at Canterbury, where I play)

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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Not an angle. If the chips didnt pass the bet line, its not a bet.

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There is no bet line at Borgata.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

I did this last week at the Borgata 10/20, not on purpose. Long story short, I was in the CO with AKo and the board was all junk. By the river I was heads up with a calling station. He checked, and I absentmindedly picked up chips (always fiddling with chips) while thinking, "Will a bet here push him off his low pair". While thinking this, and chips in hand the other guy says he calls and throws his chips in. Well sheeiit, if you can't wait 5 seconds it's not my fault. So I say I check. The calling station didn't seem to care and won the hand. But a crusty old fart complained a little and the dealer informed him I did nothing wrong and the other player acted out of turn.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

Yes this is an angle shot. Here the First Player by acting out of turn is trying to deny the button the option of checking --- Thats an angle shot. Fortunately no one here was fooled by it.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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That's ridiculous. From your description, the button did absolutely nothing that could be considered "action". For all the 1st player knew, the button might have been about to shuffle some chips while he thought about his move.

It's the 1st player who was angle-shooting, trying to force the button to commit to an action he hadn't made yet.


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Yes this is an angle shot. Here the First Player by acting out of turn is trying to deny the button the option of checking --- Thats an angle shot. Fortunately no one here was fooled by it.

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This is NOT an angle shot. If you think this is an angle shot you are some kind of whimp and should not be playing poker. Him tossing chips does not change anything. The button still had the option to bet and have that bet called or raised. He chose to check and end the action. No big thing!

Many times in head up action the player first to act will anounce "I AM GOING TO CHECK RAISE YOU" or "I AM GOING TO CHECK AND CALL YOU DOWN". The last person to act still gets to bet, or check and end the action right there.

This is an angle shot.....
First player starting to reach for chips, and the button beating him to the pot while yelling raise. First player says "I didn't bet, I am checking" then the button says "OH OK THEN, I ALSO CHECK"

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

In the given context, it doesn't appear that it's an angle shot. But performing that action will typically discourage the other player from bluffing the river. If it is done intentionally, then yes. Otherwise, no.

A similar story: I saw the same action happen once on the turn. Except the late position player decided to fold after being checked to. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

A side note: Mike Caro says, "Don't discourage a bet that you intend to call anyway." His reasoning is that you will profit from these calls when the player is bluffing, and the player will still bet a hand that is better than yours. i.e. you will miss a bet only when you would have won.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

Most card rooms I have played in have a rule about players playing in turn.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

This post does not deserve a new thread, but in the low limit hold'em games I played this week at Soaring Eagle several young guys at the table would check - then get the chips to call in hand or have them counted out away from their main stack.

One fellow exaggerated this a couple times, then folded to a bet.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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It seems like the first player was trying to head off a bluff from the button, that's why he would call before the button bet.

Since he was successful, why would he be pissed? If he had the best hand and callled instantly because he knew it, why didn't he bet or check raise

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If he was willing to call a bet, why would he want to prevent him from bluffing? All that means is that he's obligated to call all the bets that the villain will make... and the villain now knows that he's getting called (and consequently, he will only value bet, and never bluff). He still loses the bet when he's behind, but he doesn't gain value from the bluff by acting all "intimidating".

Im not sure if you're suggesting otherwise. Maybe im just pointing out the obvious.

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

Happens a lot...sometimes by mistake or player "anxiousness". If you want to construe it as an "angle shot", place it in the "weak" angle category.

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Borgata, 10/20 yesterday.

2 players remaining on the river. First player checks, button reaches for chips (I don't think he picked them up yet, just lifted his hand up toward his stack), first player beats him into the pot with a call.

Button then says "I check". First player takes his call back and wins the pot, then has some choice words for the button.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

A long long time ago (somewhere during the early 1990s) in a galaxy far far away (I don’t live there anymore) I was playing a $4/8 SPREAD LIMIT (capitalized because it is important to the story [for those who don’t know, spread limit $4/8 means you can bet anything from $1 UP TO the limit on each round]) game at Boulder Station (off the Vegas Strip). The game was very loose/aggressive and there were a couple of angle shooters causing a lot of problems.

I was playing a big draw very aggressively and had gotten it heads up on the river. I missed. First player checked. I started to bet since the pot was huge and it was my only way to win. As soon as I put the first $4 in (I am very experienced with chip handling, having spent many years as a Craps dealer) the other guy shoved in his $8. Even though the game is spread limit it is VERY unusual to see other size bets. I pulled my hand full of chips back, leaving only the $4 out there.

The table exploded ... more of the same sort of xxxx that had been coming from the angle shooters. To this day I don’t know what came over me ... why I took that shot. I almost immediately handed the dealer $4 and told him to give it to the guy who won the pot. I apologized profusely. I blushed and stammered and apologized again, saying “I don’t know why I did that. I don’t play that way.”

The table reaction was astounding. “Now that’s class”, for example. The rest of the night I got paid off like you wouldn’t believe. It turned out to be one of my biggest ever wins at $4/8.

FWIW

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

not an angle at all. Pretty common actually, "Act like im gonna bet" to see what your gonna do. Heck Caro even writes about it in his book of Tells

Re: Is this shooting an angle?
 

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not an angle at all. Pretty common actually, "Act like im gonna bet" to see what your gonna do. Heck Caro even writes about it in his book of Tells

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Hey I just said that... except you moved your hands like this