QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Table is Tight/Passive except for SB who's a bit laggy preflop.

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds.

<font color="green">Nobody's interested so a bet here is good correct?</font>

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

<font color="green">Think I made a mistake here. Was afraid SB was setting up a C/R with the flush, but afterwards thought this was incorrect...a lag's gonna bet out their draw on the flop arent they?</font>

River: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, MP2 folds.

<font color="green">Good ole' value bet</font>

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Re: middle pair on the button, look good?
 

Grunching

I bet the flop, the turn and the river.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

Bet the turn, you get a call from anyone with a single spade that you can't get on a non-spade river. You can easily fold to a check-raise so might as well pop it.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

Would everyone lay it down to a check raise on the turn here ?? Without any reads I guess I would.

Re: middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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I bet the flop, the turn and the river.

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Oh and I fold to a check-raise on either the turn or river.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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Would everyone lay it down to a check raise on the turn here ?? Without any reads I guess I would.

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yes

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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Would everyone lay it down to a check raise on the turn here ?? Without any reads I guess I would.

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Insta-Muck

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

i prefer folding preflop, in all honesty.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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i prefer folding preflop, in all honesty.

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I had 3 people coming in already, I'm last to act, and counted on the SB completing. I'd rather it be suited on a tight table but...

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

I like it. With 6 people seeing the flop I'm almost surprised that not one of the hanger-ons had the flush. I'd also be a little worried we're behind SB with K-low kicker, but by the river that value bet looks real nice.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

(grunch)

Flop: bet looks good--are you folding to a c/r? It looks like you're not expecting that here.
Turn: Bet it--I think you clearly have the best hand here.
River: I might check this down if there are still players in the pot. It is a small pot, and I think you'll see someone with K-rag here often. In your case, the bet seems good after the check-around on the turn. SB would be betting out on the river in most cases if he wanted to make a BB of his hand.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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i prefer folding preflop, in all honesty.

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I had 3 people coming in already, I'm last to act, and counted on the SB completing. I'd rather it be suited on a tight table but...

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with the exception of "I'm last to act," those are all reasons for me to fold especially since you describe them as tight AND passive. it makes me feel that QTo is highly marginal.

once the hand is going i'd likely bet the turn.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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i prefer folding preflop, in all honesty.

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I had 3 people coming in already, I'm last to act, and counted on the SB completing. I'd rather it be suited on a tight table but...

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with the exception of "I'm last to act," those are all reasons for me to fold especially since you describe them as tight AND passive. it makes me feel that QTo is highly marginal.

once the hand is going i'd likely bet the turn.

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Point taken.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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i prefer folding preflop, in all honesty.

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I'm curious why you would do this? There were 3 limpers already, and we have position. I think this is a good multiway hand, if you have the discipline to get rid of it in the face of any action. You are playing this for the nut straight and maybe hitting trips or 2 pair.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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tight AND passive

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OK, this makes sense--tight/passive is basically a calling station, but can't tight/passive also be a rock?

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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You are playing this [QTo] for the nut straight and maybe hitting trips or 2 pair.


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I'm not sure about this logic -- would you play 53o in this position?

I also play QTo like the OP did, but I'm not too afraid of having a single pair. I think QT will make top pair often enough to win too.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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You are playing this [QTo] for the nut straight and maybe hitting trips or 2 pair.


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I'm not sure about this logic -- would you play 53o in this position?

I also play QTo like the OP did, but I'm not too afraid of having a single pair. I think QT will make top pair often enough to win too.

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QTo can make more nut straights, and they are also well hidden. I think it has great implied value in a multiway pot. However, I did not point out the moderate big card value. I stress my point about in the face of action. I am betting the flop, turn &amp; probably the river, but folding to a c/r.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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i prefer folding preflop, in all honesty.

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I'm curious why you would do this? There were 3 limpers already, and we have position. I think this is a good multiway hand, if you have the discipline to get rid of it in the face of any action. You are playing this for the nut straight and maybe hitting trips or 2 pair.

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ok. i will elaborate. QTo is not a powerhouse hand. but it's not 72o either. what are the strengths of QTo? well, we've got some good high card strength, and we're somewhat connected. what are the weaknesses? well, we don't really have strong high card strength and we don't really have strong multiway power. we also have a fair amount of dominatedness.

here's the situation: we are at a table that is described as tight and passive (with the exception of SB). now does this mean the individual players ahead of us are tight and passive? probably. but one man's tight is another man's loose, so it's hard to say. three of them limp, and we're the button.

sometimes i'll limp here, sometimes not. it depends on the limpers.

but one thing is clear, QTo does not thrive against multiple tight opponents. it does help that they are passive, and that we have ultimate position for the whole hand.

playing QTo here when we'll be facing 5 villians requires considerable post-flop comfort. so i don't think the limp, while perhaps technically profitable, is automatic and routinely easy.

Re: middle pair on the button, look good?
 

Isn't this one of those cases where if you bet the river - the only call you get is from someone who has you beat? There aren't many hands he can beat that are strong enough to call with. There's no value if nobody will call your value bet unless they beat you.

An opponent holding a flush is not likely to check it on both the Turn and the River, but a King or a Two Pair may very well go into check-call mode when six players see a Flush Draw complete on the Turn.

I bet the Turn (folding to a c/r) and check-down the river after they have checked it to me.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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tight AND passive

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OK, this makes sense--tight/passive is basically a calling station, but can't tight/passive also be a rock?

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tight means someone plays few hands (usually applied to preflop). tight also usually implies that while this player is playing few hands, they are employing somewhat correct hand selection criteria.

passive, when applied to preflop play means someone tends to limp in when they are playing.

passive, when applied to postflop play means someone is more likely to call rather than raise and check rather than bet.

in general, a calling station is typified by someone who plays too many hands (loose) and plays them passively.

in general, a rock is typified by someone who played far too few hands (tight). "rock" as opposed to "tight" implies the player is NOT employing optimal hand selection criteria, as they are not playing enough hands. often, a rock will raise only with premium hands, but does have the ability to play them aggressively.

but its possible that a calling station could be "tight" and still just like to play their hands passively passively.
it is also possible that a "rock" could be too tight and also play those few hands in a passive fashion.

Re: QTo, middle pair on the button, look good?
 

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QTo can make more nut straights, and they are also well hidden. I think it has great implied value in a multiway pot. However, I did not point out the moderate big card value. I stress my point about in the face of action. I am betting the flop, turn &amp; probably the river, but folding to a c/r.

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QTo can have value here. but to say it has great value in a multiway pot is stretching.

another problem with your line of reasoning is that if the villians are truly passive, are they ever going to give you any indication that you are beat?