Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

I've heard a few respected posters say some negative things about Doyle Brunson lately. Knowing just about nothing about him other than what I've seen on TV and reading about his history with other Texas players, why is that the case? PM is cool if people would rather not publicly say, but I can't seem to find anything different from what I've read about other poker "celebrities."

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

Doyle Brunson is infallible. I thought everyone knew.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.

Russ Georgiev doesn't count.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.

Russ Georgiev doesn't count.

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Clarkmeister, for one.

Regards,

T

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.

Russ Georgiev doesn't count.

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Clarkmeister, for one.

Regards,

T

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I searched for his name in this forum, and all I got was a bunch of people wondering how old he was.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.

Russ Georgiev doesn't count.

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Clarkmeister, for one.

Regards,

T

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I searched for his name in this forum, and all I got was a bunch of people wondering how old he was.

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Clark on Doyle's scumminess

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.

Russ Georgiev doesn't count.

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Clarkmeister, for one.

Regards,

T

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I searched for his name in this forum, and all I got was a bunch of people wondering how old he was.

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Clark on Doyle's scumminess

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Sarcasm, gentlemen. Sarcasm.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Russ Georgiev doesn't count.

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You stole my answer.

I think I recall Clark once said there is (implicit) collusion in the Big Game to such a degree that no non-regulars can win.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

I'm not sure it's sarcasm. Many players feel this way.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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I'm not sure it's sarcasm.

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I don't think it was, which is why I posted what I did two posts ago.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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I'm not sure it's sarcasm.

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I don't think it was, which is why I posted what I did two posts ago.

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I didn't think it was sarcasm either. However, I didn't really care, since the moral character of big players is irrelevant to me. I'll never see them in a cash game. Furthermore, any non-regular who sits in the Big Game and doesn't know about the implicit collusion is a fool.

Regards,

T

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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I'm not sure it's sarcasm.

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I don't think it was, which is why I posted what I did two posts ago.

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I didn't think it was sarcasm either. However, I didn't really care, since the moral character of big players is irrelevant to me. I'll never see them in a cash game. Furthermore, any non-regular who sits in the Big Game and doesn't know about the implicit collusion is a fool.

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Their moral character is still relevant to me even though I'll never play with them. If someone is stealing money, I want them to be punished, even if I'm not the victim.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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I think I recall Clark once said there is (implicit) collusion in the Big Game to such a degree that no non-regulars can win.



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Did anyone that is commenting on Brunson ever read ace on the river? If had you would have read how Barry Greenstein felt the same exact way you guys did and wouldnt go to vegas at all for that reason also the rumor of chip and Brunson cheating has been going on for years, but its obviously not true. Barry plays in the big game now, and if he plays there then its obviously safe as he has no ties whatsoever to vegas, he doesnt live in vegas and only goes there occasionally to play. He is not a regular and if there was any proof to what you guys said, he would get cleaned out, but if you read his book you will see that he does rather well in it. Think about that before screaming collusion.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Did anyone that is commenting on Brunson ever read ace on the river? If had you would have read how Barry Greenstein felt the same exact way you guys did and wouldnt go to vegas at all for that reason

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What section is this in?

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

Cant recall the exact page number or anything, but its the part of the book where he talks about his life.

Also forgot to say one more thing, who do you think feeds the players in the big game?

The answer is wealthy businessmen who are out to dump a few hundred thousand and pros who win at smaller levels and are taking shots. Now do you think the average pro is just going to admit that someone is better than him? Most wont, rather than saying damn chip outplayed me I gotta work on my game, they say, he has to be cheating he cant beat me. I see that a lot of that when I play shooting games online such as unreal tournament, some people just cant believe that others are better than them and immediately start saying that they are being cheated. Its the same logic.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Cant recall the exact page number or anything, but its the part of the book where he talks about his life.

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Do you mean the long early part where he's giving a biography of how he got to where he is today?

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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I see that a lot of that when I play shooting games online such as unreal tournament, some people just cant believe that others are better than them and immediately start saying that they are being cheated. Its the same logic.

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While it is paranoid to assume you are always being cheated in poker, it is incredibly naive to assume that cheating doesn't happen, especially at the high stakes.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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While it is paranoid to assume you are always being cheated in poker, it is incredibly naive to assume that cheating doesn't happen, especially at the high stakes.

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Are you implying "Matador-like" cheating or more subtle forms like soft playing other pros?

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

It's like the Nature channel, you don't see pirhanna eating each other do you?

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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While it is paranoid to assume you are always being cheated in poker, it is incredibly naive to assume that cheating doesn't happen, especially at the high stakes.

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Are you implying "Matador-like" cheating or more subtle forms like soft playing other pros?

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I don't know what "Matador-like" means. But I mean that there are people playing poker every day with the intention of cheating for profit. I think those people are greatly in the minority, and I think that if you sit in any small or medium stakes game, you could play your whole life, make a lot of money, and not worry too much about cheating. But as the stakes increase, the incentive to cheat increases, and with it, the concentration of cheaters also increases.

Basically, I'm saying this. If you want to play $40-$80 limit in LA, $15-$30 limit on Party, or $5-$10 blind no limit, then you basically don't have to worry much about cheating. You might get cheated once in a while, but overall it's not going to impact your bottom line much.

But if you waltz into a $300-$600 mixed game or a big no limit game where you don't know the players (or don't know them well), and you bring your $200k bankroll and start playing regularly, you're going to look like a mark to someone. And if you stick around long enough, some people are going to treat you like a mark until you wise up. That's not just the way poker is... that's the way life is.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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But if you waltz into a $300-$600 mixed game or a big no limit game where you don't know the players (or don't know them well), and you bring your $200k bankroll and start playing regularly, you're going to look like a mark to someone. And if you stick around long enough, some people are going to treat you like a mark until you wise up. That's not just the way poker is... that's the way life is.

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In a big casino?

I could see it happening in games that arent watched, but the big casino games are. In the Bellagio being cheated? Seems kind of crazy in my opinion, I mean why? You can make so much more by playing fair and crushing the same people over and over.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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In a big casino?

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Yes.

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I could see it happening in games that arent watched, but the big casino games are. In the Bellagio being cheated? Seems kind of crazy in my opinion, I mean why?

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I'm not talking about any one specific poker room. I'm saying that there's lots of money to be made cheating high level games, and you're crazy if you think no one is attempting to do it.

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You can make so much more by playing fair and crushing the same people over and over.

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I don't cheat, so yes, I make more playing fair. But cheaters make way more than they would if they didn't cheat. That's why they cheat.

Again, I don't mean to be alarmist at all. Most poker games are 100% square, especially ones at small and medium stakes. I don't feel I've ever really been cheated. And if I have, I've done fine in small and medium games despite being cheated.

But your attitude is very naive.

Cheating the Stock Market
 

If you think it's improbable that people would try to cheat while "being watched" in a casino, look at the stock market. The SEC & Company "watches" the stock market a lot more closely than anyone watches poker games. And even Martha Stewart tried to cheat the stock market.

In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

Doyle ....and the market...hmmm...there has to be a real good, WPTE joke in here somewhere.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.

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no comment, other than your post was truly fantastic on multiple levels.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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some people are going to treat you like a mark until you wise up.

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Then they may ask you to join the team... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I don't know what "Matador-like" means

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Refers to the TV series 'tilt'.(ring a bell?) He'd load the table with 'his' players.

b

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

I guess I didnt clarify, this thread was about the most famous players cheating, which I said of course not.

I do agree with what you said I mean im sure people try to cheat all the time at the higher levels, not just in poker, but any of the casino games in general. What im trying to say is that the players that have been around for a while dont cheat. Thats why I said why would they cheat.

I was not specific enough.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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Thats why I said why would they cheat.

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To make money? Even slight or merely understood collusion is very valuable at $4000/8000.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

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To make money? Even slight or merely understood collusion is very valuable at $4000/8000.

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They are going to win anyway, why not just do it fairly, im just saying they are going to win anyway so they dont need any cheating. Also people always find out, I mean no new players would be able to survive at those levels, it would be found out if everyone was cheating.

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

"What section is this in?"


Page 25.

Barry says......

"Years later when I finally took a shot at the bigger game, Chip and Doyle were extremely nice to me. I came to realize that great players are nice to new players. They don't win by cheating, but by getting people involved. A good gambler gets people to gamble with him and finds situations where he can beat them out of their money. In the course of playing with them, it also became obvious to me that Chip and Doyle were not partners, but were friendly rivals."



Best of Luck

Howard

Re: Doyle\'s a scumbag?
 

Thanks. So Barry's official position is that D+C are not cheaters.

Barry talks a lot about creating good gambling environments for fish.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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If you think it's improbable that people would try to cheat while "being watched" in a casino, look at the stock market. The SEC & Company "watches" the stock market a lot more closely than anyone watches poker games. And even Martha Stewart tried to cheat the stock market.

In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.

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This is a bit slimy.

I don't know Doyle Brunson, and don't really care what he does or what he has done. Nor do I really care what any player does as long as I am not affected.

But for a person of your status, to throw around such thinly veiled insinuations, without any proof to back it up...borders on slander.

This is kind of beneath you.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

I didn't take it as a sling at Doyle so much as a sling at Mid-to-High-Limit_Poker_Players.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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If you think it's improbable that people would try to cheat while "being watched" in a casino, look at the stock market. The SEC & Company "watches" the stock market a lot more closely than anyone watches poker games. And even Martha Stewart tried to cheat the stock market.

In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.

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This is a bit slimy.

I don't know Doyle Brunson, and don't really care what he does or what he has done. Nor do I really care what any player does as long as I am not affected.

But for a person of your status, to throw around such thinly veiled insinuations, without any proof to back it up...borders on slander.

This is kind of beneath you.

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I took the stock market reference as a jab at the rumour that Brunson was part of a group to purchase the WPT from Lyle Bermans group.

No wrong doing has been proved. The reference and implications of cheating were slimy and out of line.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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I took the stock market reference as a jab at the rumour that Brunson was part of a group to purchase the WPT from Lyle Bermans group.

No wrong doing has been proved. The reference and implications of cheating were slimy and out of line.

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You jumped to conclusions. I don't know anything about Doyle Brunson except what is in his books.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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I took the stock market reference as a jab at the rumour that Brunson was part of a group to purchase the WPT from Lyle Bermans group.

No wrong doing has been proved. The reference and implications of cheating were slimy and out of line.

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You jumped to conclusions. I don't know anything about Doyle Brunson except what is in his books.

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I have been known to do that. However with the subject matter of the thread and the WPT rumour being relatively recent, it did not really seem to be coincidental. But maybe I am wrong.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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I have been known to do that. However with the subject matter of the thread and the WPT rumour being relatively recent, it did not really seem to be coincidental. But maybe I am wrong.

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Thats not a rumor, there was a press conference where Doyle made the announcement of his intentions to work with his undisclosed backers. I saw the video, he looked like a deer in caught in headlights (George Bush).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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I have been known to do that. However with the subject matter of the thread and the WPT rumour being relatively recent, it did not really seem to be coincidental. But maybe I am wrong.

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*shrug*

My comments don't refer to any specific person or situation (except Martha Stewart).

This is a PSA for 2+2'ers who believe everything they hear on TV and in magazines and interviews. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Just because you see someone on TV, and they have the reputation of being an excellent poker player and a standup person doesn't mean that either is true. They might be a bad poker player and a cheater. In fact, in my opinion, the large majority of "TV poker personalities" have been presented with a serious layer of spin. They're not all cheaters by any means, but most of them are not the "poker geniuses" the shows would have you believe they are. Some are hustlers, grifters, cheaters, beggers, and the like. Most of the other ones are just some boob who plays poker ok and is running good.

I read the WPT forum occasionally, and it makes me laugh how so many people parrot what they saw on a poker TV show or read in an interview. They don't question it at all... they buy it hook, line, and sinker. That goes for many things in our society, but I happen to know more about poker players than I do about, say, White House officials, so it's more amusing to me to see the delusion.

Living in ignorance is fine as long as you don't sit at the table with these people. But when you enter their territory... the big games... you'd better have your wits about you.

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

Ed,

Do you think that we will see an expose by a news organization (Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc.) about a poker player or the poker world in general? I'm not asking you to name names or speculate, just to render an opinion on how easy it would be for a decent investigative reporter to put something juicy together.

(For the record, I am not a reporter nor am I affiliated with any news organization. I am just curious.)

Re: Cheating the Stock Market
 

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Do you think that we will see an expose by a news organization (Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc.) about a poker player or the poker world in general? I'm not asking you to name names or speculate, just to render an opinion on how easy it would be for a decent investigative reporter to put something juicy together.

(For the record, I am not a reporter nor am I affiliated with any news organization. I am just curious.)

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I don't think it would be easy for an investigative reporter to put anything like that together. That's because cheating at poker can be a technical and subtle enterprise, and even if someone "blew the whistle," there's no evidence to present. There are no incriminating memos and no easy way to "catch them in the act." Only way to really "get the story" would be to become an accomplice and get an under cover story.

I have not, and will never, accuse any specific player or group of cheating, nor will I accuse any specific cardroom of harboring cheating. Those accusations are serious business, and I'm not qualified to make them.

But people do cheat at poker sometimes, and you shouldn't assume that just because you are in a large cardroom or major online room that it can't possibly be happening.