I can toss this turn right?
 

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (16.00 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10.00 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, Hero folds.

Once the turn bet got called in 3 spots, I figure someones got a K and I can toss it right?

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

Boy, this a tough spot. At first I liked it, but I didn't read the turn action close enough. SB looks like he's getting passive with a pair of jacks or something, and MP may very well be taking a stab at this. In a pot this big offering so many draws, I'd like seeing a showdown.

I think I would've taken a stab on the turn, or perhaps raise the flop. I'm not sure about the flop though.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

I think you have to bet this turn. Check the river UI, and call if HU. As for overcalling the river, because of the SB's odd play (which looks a lot like JJ or QQ, JJ being more likely), I think you call the river also.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

why not bet the turn when it is checked to you?

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

b/c I had 2 people behind me who both called the flop. I figured one of them had to have a king b/c the only other draw is a flush draw and what are the odds of both having a flush draw?

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

id raise the flop, but betting the turn when it gets checked to you is a must.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

One thing I just noticed:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (10.00 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets, Button folds, SB calls, Hero folds.

Once the turn bet got called in 3 spots, I figure someone's got a K and I can toss it right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the action, you CAN'T figure SB for a king here. In fact, you can be pretty damn sure he doesn't have one. So MP is the only option, and plently of players will take stab here with a T, a heart draw, or any of the broadway straight draws. In a 10 BB pot, I'm uncomfortable folding, especially after no one showed any strength on the turn.

Like it's been said, bet the turn.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
b/c I had 2 people behind me who both called the flop. I figured one of them had to have a king b/c the only other draw is a flush draw and what are the odds of both having a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

flush draw, straight draw, middle pair, PP, AJo, who knows. I think giving one of them credit for a King here is very weak-tight.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

Think about it this way: if MP had a K, doesn't he raise the flop, either for value, or to put pressure on the button and get last action on later streets?

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Think about it this way: if MP had a K, doesn't he raise the flop, either for value, or to put pressure on the button and get last action on later streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude i'm agreeing with you. i dont think he has a K. i think we bet this turn 100% of the time it gets checked to us

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

The pot is so big on the flop and turn here. People could be calling on all sorts of draws, I think it's weak to assume that these calls mean a king.

I would raise the flop and try to get a feel for where I stand. This pot is big and I don't like the idea of just stepping aside because some people called a bet.

(edit: Actually a flop raise doesn't really accomplish that much, due to the size of the pot. But I think we should definitely bet the turn when checked to.)

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Think about it this way: if MP had a K, doesn't he raise the flop, either for value, or to put pressure on the button and get last action on later streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. A lot of players wuss out there with even AK after the preflop action. He also wouldn't raise with KK some of the time. This hand played out in such a way that the flop action defines little about anyone's hand, except hero's unfortunately.

However, I still think it's way too weak to give him credit for a king.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

Not necessarily, and thats the crux of my dilemma. I think that given the pf action he might be afraid to raise a weaker K like KT, KJ. I wasn't sure of the likelyhood of him having a K but what hand is he calling 2 cold with that he bets on the turn with? He's not goining to bet a strait or flushdraw b/c the pot is too big for people to be folding. Furthermore, he'd be more likely to raise a strait or flushdraw than a K b/c he's gotta know his outs are clean. A K might not raise for fear of getting 3 bet w/a hand having little chance of improving. He's gotta be betting for value right?

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

I don't know that I would be betting the turn here because many good players will check-raise the turn with a strong hand after 3 players call on the flop. However, when he doesn't raise the turn, I would probably raise for value. MP probably has AT, JJ, or maybe TT. SB probably has Ax [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. When I check the turn, I wouldn't know if I'd be raising, folding, or calling when the action gets back to me. I could be wrong here, but considering the action, I think you have the best hand.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's gotta be betting for value right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, but not necessarily with a King. Could be 99, 88, TT (you lose), AT, QT. There are plenty of non-value bet hands he'll bet too. QJ, AQ, AJ.

After the two main preflop aggressors shut down on the turn, a player's betting range opens up considerably. A king hand is too narrow a range to put him on.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that I would be betting the turn here because many good players will check-raise the turn with a strong hand after 3 players call on the flop. However, when he doesn't raise the turn, I would probably raise for value. MP probably has AT, JJ, or maybe TT. SB probably has Ax [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. When I check the turn, I wouldn't know if I'd be raising, folding, or calling when the action gets back to me. I could be wrong here, but considering the action, I think you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poor hand reading. Reread all the action. Putting SB on Ax [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is wayyyyy too narrow. It's probably one of his least likely holdings. (If he was going to c/r Ax[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], the flop was the place to do it).

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

Yah, you guys are def right about that and I like your analysis. I think betting the turn is def the way to go. I dont know about raising the flop b/c sb's hand combined w/the K on the board presents a problem. Once he check the turn though, I think I gotta bet it. I'll post the results when the discussion dies down.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

Yeah, I've thought about the flop raise possibility, and I think it accomplishes very little. Hands are calling that don't necessarily have a King in it, but you're still left clueless in a big pot. It might be for value, but it will be hard to tell.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

When he bets the flop, my range of hands for sb is AA, KK, QQ, Axh, JJ?, AK, KQs. Does that sound right? I called b/c I've got almost set value plus the bd flush. Once he checks the turn, I can prolly narrow down that range a lot and add some hands I didn't consider before

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not bet the turn when it is checked to you?

[/ QUOTE ]b/c I had 2 people behind me who both called the flop. I figured one of them had to have a king b/c the only other draw is a flush draw and what are the odds of both having a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's a problem, isn't it?

You have 2 flop callers behind you and have no clue whether they have air, a draw, a low pair, or a king. This is one of those few situations where raising to gain information is correct. If you raised the flop, your turn decision would be much easier.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

This is the one point in this hand that I think is very unclear. I thought raising the flop was a good option at first, but I don't think so anymore. At least not for gaining information. Like I said, SB is calling with anything once you raised, any heart draw is calling, and MP might still call with a decent PP hands. Only if you get 3-bet do you have any strong idea of where you stand.

OP - what limit is this? reads? That might help somewhat.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

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Only if you get 3-bet do you have any strong idea of where you stand.

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Not true. If either of the players behind me c/c my raise, I'm giving up UI on the turn. If they both fold, I'm going into the turn more informed and with position.

Either way, it's better than investing a full bet on the turn in what "appears" to be a favorable spot, but usually isn't.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

I'd contest that if BOTH call, you can probably fold the turn UI.

Don't forget MP raised preflop, and we have no reads. He might call as light as AQo with one heart.

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

3/6, My reads were that both MP and sb were loose passive 35/8 types

Re: I can toss this turn right?
 

What is his hand range then? I don't think he is going to check-raise the turn with the Ax [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but I think he would certainly bet the flop for value, then check-call the turn, as he did here. What hands do you think are more likely? Why do you think he is check-raising the turn anyway, considering he check-called?

Results
 

River was a blank ang got checked through.

Sb showed down 55 and MP took it down w/88 :feels sick inside:

I gotta brake out of my weaktight funk!! As always, thanx for all the responses, it was good stuff