Was Villain Right?
 

Villain seems pretty decent. something like 22/14/2.8 over 100 hands

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Following Chat:

Villain: Stupid

Villain: How do you even see the river there...

Hero: (in smarta$$ mode) I pressed call on the turn.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

Wow. I'd fold preflop. I'd just call the flop. I'd fold the turn.

I think you played this one really bad.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

Well, you're getting 7.5-1 to call the turn, but the action seems to indicate you're against a big pair or the ace is no good. I think there is zero chance you're ahead here. If the ace was good, you have 7 outs, so let's say it's good 50-50. So that gives you 5.5 outs at 7.5-1. I lean towards folding to the turn bet, but that's me.

Jeff

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

puke on every street

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

Please PM me your screenname. My buddy list needs new additions.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Please PM me your screenname. My buddy list needs new additions.

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Thanks for the constructive criticism. I've admitted in almost every post in this forum that I'm trying to learn this game.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Wow. I'd fold preflop. I'd just call the flop. I'd fold the turn.

I think you played this one really bad.

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Thanks Evan. 4 handed I thought the PF raise might be decent...guess not.

On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

On the turn, I thought I could easily have 7 outs there.

Thoughts on my thoughts.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

4-handed the pfr is fine.

Krishan - 87

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Please PM me your screenname. My buddy list needs new additions.

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Thanks for the constructive criticism. I've admitted in almost every post in this forum that I'm trying to learn this game.

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New or not to 6-max, Im not sure where you got the ideas of: (a) raising the preflop three-bettor on the flop with a gutshot and a tainted overcard; (b) calling on the turn with the same draw after the villain three-bets your raise on the flop and leads the turn. This hand is uninteresting because it was so poorly played that useful feedback is not possible, thus my smart-ass comment.

PS: Evan may not have noticed that this was a 4-handed game. I also raise this preflop.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Please PM me your screenname. My buddy list needs new additions.

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Thanks for the constructive criticism. I've admitted in almost every post in this forum that I'm trying to learn this game.

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New or not to 6-max, Im not sure where you got the ideas of: (a) raising the preflop three-bettor on the flop with a gutshot and a tainted overcard; (b) calling on the turn with the same draw after the villain three-bets your raise on the flop and leads the turn. This hand is uninteresting because it was so poorly played that useful feedback is not possible, thus my smart-ass comment.

PS: Evan may not have noticed that this was a 4-handed game. I also raise this preflop.

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I'll gladly take that response. Thanks for elaborating.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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calling on the turn with the same draw after the villain three-bets your raise on the flop and leads the turn.

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The turn call is easy. You have to be very good or mediocre to make it, but it's very correct.

Krishan

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

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Something you want to consider is the amount of times your gutshot is your only good card. Often your A is tainted pretty badly, so you're raising the flop hoping to get one of something like 6-7 turn cards. Not worth it when you consider the chances of being 3bet, as you were.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

Show me the math. No way A-high unimproved is good against this three-bettor, and no way his ace outs are clean. This is an easy fold.

EDIT: "Villain seems pretty decent. something like 22/14/2.8 over 100 hands"

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Well, you're getting 7.5-1 to call the turn, but the action seems to indicate you're against a big pair or the ace is no good. I think there is zero chance you're ahead here. If the ace was good, you have 7 outs, so let's say it's good 50-50. So that gives you 5.5 outs at 7.5-1. I lean towards folding to the turn bet, but that's me.

Jeff

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Jeff:

Given the way the hand played out, I would think villain would have to have exactly AA to make this turn call -EV. The fact that I have an Ace compared to all the combos of other overpairs he can have, I think make this really close to 7 outs. I'm also surely going to get 2 more if I hit my straight making the implied odds even better.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Show me the math. No way A-high unimproved is good against this three-bettor, and no way his ace outs are clean. This is an easy fold.

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How many outs does he have? How big is the pot? If you do the work, you see that it's actually not close.

Krishan

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

Anyone who says preflop is wrong is too tight.

This should be an easy raise from this position.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Well, you're getting 7.5-1 to call the turn, but the action seems to indicate you're against a big pair or the ace is no good. I think there is zero chance you're ahead here. If the ace was good, you have 7 outs, so let's say it's good 50-50. So that gives you 5.5 outs at 7.5-1. I lean towards folding to the turn bet, but that's me.

Jeff

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Jeff:

Given the way the hand played out, I would think villain would have to have exactly AA to make this turn call -EV. The fact that I have an Ace compared to all the combos of other overpairs he can have, I think make this really close to 7 outs. I'm also surely going to get 2 more if I hit my straight making the implied odds even better.

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Perfect. Very nice.

Krishan - 89

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

I agree...partially. I'd usually fold this pf, but against the right people I'd raise. I'd just call the flop. I would also call the turn here.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

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Something you want to consider is the amount of times your gutshot is your only good card. Often your A is tainted pretty badly, so you're raising the flop hoping to get one of something like 6-7 turn cards. Not worth it when you consider the chances of being 3bet, as you were.

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I agree. That wasn't well thought out at the time.

Had I played this properly on the flop, I could have folded the turn.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

7.5BB on the turn. He has 4 outs to the str8, and 1.5 outs to the ace. Now consider the reverse implied from the club redraw on 4th street, or the possibility that he will hit his ace but be drawing dead to a set, and it's a fold.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

I'd be tempted to fold the flop. You don't have odds for the gutshot and the SB is saying pretty clearly your Ace might not even be good.

I get why you raised the flop, I might have done the same, but in hindsight I think you had to let this go.

The turn is a clear fold. Ace outs are questionable, so the odds just aren't there to call.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Wow. I'd fold preflop. I'd just call the flop. I'd fold the turn.

I think you played this one really bad.

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Thanks Evan. 4 handed I thought the PF raise might be decent...guess not.

On the flop, I was hoping I could get a free turn from overs....not so.

On the turn, I thought I could easily have 7 outs there.

Thoughts on my thoughts.

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I'd raise from the button, so I supose it can't be that bad, but I still don't like it.

I don't think your draw is strong enough or the pot is big enough to care about free cards.

There's no way you can give yourself 7 outs. I think its more in the 5-5.5 range. Even with very generous implied odds assumptions this is neutral at best.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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I'm also surely going to get 2 more if I hit my straight

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Unless he check-calls the staight-making card. Also, are you raising an ace? Is he always paying off? Are you calling a 3 bet? Assuming you always get 2 bets on the river when you improve is really ambitious.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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I would think villain would have to have exactly AA to make this turn call -EV. The fact that I have an Ace compared to all the combos of other overpairs he can have, I think make this really close to 7 outs.

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Or villain has 88, 55, 44, or TT and you're drawing dead to your gutshot. Your ace outs are tainted and its not because villain has JJ-KK.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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7.5BB on the turn. He has 4 outs to the str8, and 1.5 outs to the ace. Now consider the reverse implied from the club redraw on 4th street, or the possibility that he will hit his ace but be drawing dead to a set, and it's a fold.

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Why 1.5? You aren't putting villian on a range. You are just saying well hell I have an overcard, I'll discount it to 1.5 outs and it's a fold. That's not good enough. The way to do this is to say againt TT-KK I have 7 outs. Against Big unpaired aces I have 7 outs because if I pair my kicker I'm good. Against AA I have 3 outs. Then weight them. Add in 2 bets worth of implied odds for the straight and see what you come up with.

I would discount set hands just because I think most would try and cr the turn on that board.

Krishan

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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I'm also surely going to get 2 more if I hit my straight

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Unless he check-calls the staight-making card. Also, are you raising an ace? Is he always paying off? Are you calling a 3 bet? Assuming you always get 2 bets on the river when you improve is really ambitious.

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I'm never raising a rivered ace. Villian will always pay off with an overpair. Villian will always bet with an overpair.

I think these are safe assumptions.

Krishan - 90

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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I would think villain would have to have exactly AA to make this turn call -EV. The fact that I have an Ace compared to all the combos of other overpairs he can have, I think make this really close to 7 outs.

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Or villain has 88, 55, 44, or TT and you're drawing dead to your gutshot. Your ace outs are tainted and its not because villain has JJ-KK.

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Are you saying villain 3 bet the flop and leads the turn with a big A here or what?

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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The way to do this is to say againt TT-KK I have 7 outs. Against Big unpaired aces I have 7 outs because if I pair my kicker I'm good

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I think this leaves us in an interesting position if we hit an Ace, or particularly a 6, and are bet into.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

Many people would play AK or AQ like the villian (on the flop) in a 4-handed game.

Jeff

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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The way to do this is to say againt TT-KK I have 7 outs. Against Big unpaired aces I have 7 outs because if I pair my kicker I'm good

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I think this leaves us in an interesting position if we hit an Ace, or particularly a 6, and are bet into.

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Not really. We just call.

Krishan

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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I'm never raising a rivered ace. Villian will always pay off with an overpair. Villian will always bet with an overpair.

I think these are safe assumptions.

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Villain may often chec-call an overpair, I think that's a fair assumption. Villain may also have AK/AQ, I don't think we're giving these hands enough credit (even though the flop play makes it unlikely, it's possible).

I just feel like we need a whole lot of things to go just right to make the turn a call.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

THANK YOU. Evan's post is clearly correct as is his next one. You are far from "guaranteed" to get two bets if you hit the ace also.

Jeff

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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The way to do this is to say againt TT-KK I have 7 outs. Against Big unpaired aces I have 7 outs because if I pair my kicker I'm good

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I think this leaves us in an interesting position if we hit an Ace, or particularly a 6, and are bet into.

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Are we really paying off the river with a 6?

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

I dont think it´s that bad. I probably wouldn´t play preflop, depends how button/BB plays.
The flop is fine if you think you can get him off a better A.
Turn isn´t that close really. You get close to 4 outs for the gutshot and a little more than two for the A. You are going to win 2 bets when you hit the 7. Your action on the river will probably be around +2/3 BB when you hit the A. Since only one bet goes in with most of his holdings.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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THANK YOU. Evan's post is clearly correct as is his next one. You are far from "guaranteed" to get two bets if you hit the ace also.

Jeff

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We don't need 2 bets. The implied odds are strickly from the straight.

Krishan

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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THANK YOU. Evan's post is clearly correct as is his next one. You are far from "guaranteed" to get two bets if you hit the ace also.

Jeff

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We don't need 2 bets. The implied odds are strickly from the straight.

Krishan

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You will not get 2 bets on average when you river a straight, you just won't.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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Why 1.5? You aren't putting villian on a range. You are just saying well hell I have an overcard, I'll discount it to 1.5 outs and it's a fold. That's not good enough. The way to do this is to say againt TT-KK I have 7 outs. Against Big unpaired aces I have 7 outs because if I pair my kicker I'm good. Against AA I have 3 outs. Then weight them. Add in 2 bets worth of implied odds for the straight and see what you come up with.

I would discount set hands just because I think most would try and cr the turn on that board.

Krishan

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1. Against big unpaired aces, he doesn't have 7 outs. He has 3 outs (and this assumes the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is clean)

2. More to our point of disagreement, I dont think dominated aces are the trouble, because the action on the flop is not really consistent with AK, AQ, even if suited, and the preflop action is not consistent with A5, A8, or A4. The problem with calling is the possibility that villain holds a set. If you want to talk hand distribution, 55, 44, 88, and TT are all consistent with the flop action, and there are a total of 12 combinations of these hands, plus 3 more combos of AA. This is a total of 15 combos he's drawing dead against absent the gutshot. For JJ-KK, there are 18 combos. This is a tossup, and that's why the overs are worth 50% here.

I would do it myself, but I dont have Pokerstove. Will somebody bake the odds on the turn if you put villain on 44, 55, 88, TT-AA. Then for run it again for the same range but add in A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and 99.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

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We don't need 2 bets. The implied odds are strickly from the straight.

Krishan

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You will not get 2 bets on average when you river a straight, you just won't.

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Don't tell me he just won't. Tell me the hands that are in his range, that he'll check on the river fearing a straight made by a 6 by a preflop raiser who raised the flop.

Or is he bet/folding aces here? I value bet everything I've played this way so far and I'm paying off a raise. What hands are you playing differently?

Krishan

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

I like every street. The only hands a SB with those stats could hold that make this play incorrect are AA and 88, and even against those, you have 4 outs and great implied odds.

A8 or AT would be bad, but he doesn't have those. I don't think this player would 3 bet A8 preflop, and I don't think he would 3 bet AT on the flop.

I like a flop raise, planning to bet the turn if he just calls so maybe he lays down hands like AJ or KQ. It's a good semibluff with 7 outs. The pot is big enough to try this.

Against hands like QQ you have 7 outs. You have 7 outs even against hands that dominate you like AK.

Folding at any point in this hand would be a mistake.

Re: Was Villain Right?
 

folding the flop would suck. You are getting 8:1 and have at least 4 outs. With implied odds (even if you have 4 outs you'd only need to make up 1.5 BB on average) it's an easy call.