$2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

Seat 1: $18.75
Seat 3: $138.50
Seat 4: $50.75
Seat 5: $16.50
Hero: $133.50
Seat 7: $15
Seat 8: $32

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___raises
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (6.88 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (4.94 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

<font color="blue"> Ok, my read on Seat 5 was he got frisky on third with a low. I should have figured an Ace was involved ‘cause it was.
</font>
6th Street - (7.94 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises $2.25 to $6.25 and is all-in
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (12.63 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets $2.25 and is all-in
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___all-in
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls

Total pot: (13.75 BB)

Results:
Total pot $55 Main pot $48.50. Side pot $4.50. | Rake $2
<font color="white">
Seat 1: [5s 6c 2s Kh 7d Ad Qs] (HI: high card Ace; LO: 7,6,5,2,A)

Seat 5: [As 5d 4c Jh Js 2h 3s] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)

Hero: [Qc Qd 6d Ac 2d 5h 9h] (HI: a pair of Queens)
</font>

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

This kind of hand happens to me all the time, I'm not successful in isolating a single low draw, and their boards still don't improve that much, I lose a lot of bets in this spot that I think I could avoid.

3rd- In my experience this is very often an oddly played 3 card low that will often have an A, (AA)4 a smallish amount of the time

4th- Standard.

5th- JJ probably does NOT have two pair here most of the time, but he's picked up some outs for your half of the pot. Other guy is obviously on low. I think you have the odds to call here (correct?) but there may be some jamming as soon as 5 hits his low, so is this a playing loser with this hand?

6th- I'd read this as jacks up (stumbled onto from the low draw) from the checkraise, seat 5 obviously made his low. Not the case here, but thats what I'd see it as.
If that was the case you'd have what, around 3 to 1 for the high half of the pot? I make this call here even though I hate it, but when getting trapped in trying to fend off low draws with a big pair is a big hole for me, even though I try and be really careful about it.

Interesting to see what others have to say.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

When I put myself in seat 5's position on 4th, I get the brick and you get the Ace. I would have folded to your 'better low', which got me to thinking. Am I too weak in this situation? Anyhow, here are the sims:

dead 4s tc 3d 7c

Seat 1: [5s 6c 2s Kh 7d Ad Qs] (HI: high card Ace; LO: 7,6,5,2,A)

Seat 5: [As 5d 4c Jh Js 2h 3s] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)

Hero: [Qc Qd 6d Ac 2d 5h 9h] (HI: a pair of Queens)

3rd
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 5s 6c 2s - as 5d 4c - qc qd 6d / 4s tc 3d 7c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 6c 60791 94624 405242 134 168156 54040 939 0.290
As 4c 5d 81992 118156 381714 130 178470 43200 896 0.335
Qc Qd 6d 82764 287076 212900 24 7378 6283 97 0.375

4th (6.88 SB)
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 5s 6c 2s kh - as 5d 4c jh - qc qd 6d ac / 4s tc 3d 7c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 6c Kh 62460 96961 403004 35 114499 28919 349 0.255
As 4c 5d Jh 62944 87027 412923 50 140830 20638 334 0.268
Ac Qc Qd 6d 147237 315959 184020 21 21620 8995 147 0.477

5th (4.94BB)
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 5s 6c 2s kh 7d - as 5d 4c jh js - qc qd 6d ac 2d / 4s tc 3d 7c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 6c 7d Kh 46343 63736 436264 0 242792 37611 441 0.326
As Js 4c 5d Jh 57414 149505 350495 0 45334 17190 56 0.247
Ac Qc Qd 6d 2d 109086 286759 213241 0 46405 15831 449 0.426

6th (7.94BB)
pokenum -7s8 5s 6c 2s kh 7d ad - as 5d 4c jh js 2h - qc qd 6d ac 2d 5h / 4s tc 3d 7c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 24360 enumerated outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 6c Ad 7d Kh 878 1653 22707 0 14990 8000 1370 0.356
As Js 4c 5d Jh 2h 2436 7224 17136 0 4644 4092 196 0.246
Ac Qc Qd 6d 2d 5h 2055 15483 8877 0 3260 4302 1370 0.399

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

What are you paying off the river with? I'd say your chance of winning high is next to zero.

Jeff

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

I can't see why anyone would want to fold a 12BB pot for half a bet

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

Didn't notice it was all-in. Would you call a $4 bet here? I wouldn't. I guess for 2 bucks, it's fine and I'd probably call. But I just think, what are the chances that you are winning (whether they had you beat or rivered you, it is extremely likely that a pair of queens is no good).

Jeff

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

I think I would either fold this hand on 3rd street or just limp in representing a low draw... If I did the latter, I would lead on 4th through 6th streets, and then call and muck on seventh

Mike

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This kind of hand happens to me all the time, I'm not successful in isolating a single low draw, and their boards still don't improve that much, I lose a lot of bets in this spot that I think I could avoid.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well put and same here.


[ QUOTE ]
3rd- In my experience this is very often an oddly played 3 card low that will often have an A, (AA)4 a smallish amount of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
I’m not sure how aware I was of his stack. Also, I’m trying to remember if he’d made this kind of “hail Mary” play before. Can’t remember for sure.


[ QUOTE ]
5th- JJ probably does NOT have two pair here most of the time, but he's picked up some outs for your half of the pot. Other guy is obviously on low. I think you have the odds to call here (correct?) but there may be some jamming as soon as 5 hits his low, so is this a playing loser with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
I really need to spend some time with sims.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

Thanks Ray, I was thinking I should have done this before posting but it was a little late for me.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't notice it was all-in. Would you call a $4 bet here? I wouldn't. I guess for 2 bucks, it's fine and I'd probably call. But I just think, what are the chances that you are winning (whether they had you beat or rivered you, it is extremely likely that a pair of queens is no good).

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably would have folded to a full bet and was not hopeful. I’d hate myself if I let it go for 2 bucks and was good.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would either fold this hand on 3rd street or just limp in representing a low draw... If I did the latter, I would lead on 4th through 6th streets, and then call and muck on seventh

[/ QUOTE ]

When I play a high hand (esp. Queens), I almost always complete. I was happy to have only one caller besides the BI, even though the other caller raised.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

I play it the same, but I'd reraise 3rd. It might get it HU (at these stakes it probably wouldn't).

Someone mentioned calling 3rd. I dunno if this is better, but in this case, you'd probably get at least one fold on 4th if you'd called.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

I'm rather suprised everyone is saying that the river is a fold. Lets say no one was all in and seat 5 flat calls the river. It's 1 BB to you for a 14.6BBs pot. You're getting 7.3 to 1 and I think you're going to be good much more than that.

You're checking 6A25 to to seat 1, which just screams fives up, so the far most probable hand taht seat 1 will bet is is a 7low, not aces or two pair. Given how the hand has played out, hero is very likely to be good on 6th, and only has to dodge under 15 cards between the two of them. If villains has just $4 behind, its pretty reasonable for them to bet their 7low no pair and seat 5 will probably call the river with just about anything and hope his jacks are good.

If seat 1 and 5 had alot more chips behind and could be faced with a raise by betting the river, then I can maybe see a case for folding. Since they were almost all in, even if they had one last full bet, I'm calling this river everytime. But maybe i'm too lose on the river.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

I dont like 5th. I would probably just give up at that point.

Edit: I dont like 3rd either. I dont know what I would do though. Probably do something different everytime depending on how the game was playing.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

Why would you fold on 5th? In all the likely scenarios, you have the best hand at that point...
Plus you have the benefit of having an extremely deceptive board

Mike

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

If it were me, Id easily pay this off for a full bet on the river. Both Seat 1 and Seat 5 need to have perfect hole cards to have a straight. Seat 5 could easily have Js up, but not often enough to make a call -EV I would think.

Aicirt

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

Thanks BRL,

I think I see what your saying. If we do take the all-ins out of the mixed, do you think I can call a bet and (full) check-raise on sixth?

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I dont like 3rd either. I dont know what I would do though. Probably do something different everytime depending on how the game was playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that because of the 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] behind me? If one of them had called, this hand would have been played very differently.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

I dont want to fold, but I dont want to bet. There is chance on 5th you are now slightly behind. You are most likely a little ahead but I am not a huge fan of making thin value bets into two opponents when one of them could raise. It then also commits you just little more on 6th when sh*t could hit the fan and you might be guessing if you hand is good or not.

Re: $2/$4 Stud/8 - Huh?
 

That was my first instinct when I looked at this hand. You have the 3, the 7, and the BI to still act. When I am playing big pairs I almost always want to try to get HU. If not you need to proceed with extreme caution. I forget who mentioned limping but that doesnt seem like a bad idea either for the reasons that he mentioned.

I get caught in between the jamming to often with big pairs and the times that I am scooped I feel outweighs the times when I win half the pot. There are of course times when I may scoop but it isnt often against two or more players who are playing decent holdings.