How do you establish a loose image?
 

I play the standard 2+2 15-20% of the hands and everyone notices that I'm a rock b/c they all playing 40% of their hands. This still doesn't stop them from calling me down when I miss the flop w/overs but whenever I actually hit something, they seem to fold right away.

What do the rest of you guys do to portray a loose fun image w/out giving up EV?

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

Are you varying your play or shifting gears? How much time do you spend in selecting a table? Do you occasionally raise on the button with air?

One trick I use is that I pick a hand, say 78s, and play it like AA all night. It helps me develop my post flop skills and it adds a bit of deception to my game.

Of course, at the NL $25 table, you don't need to employ any where near that elaborate of a meta game. Just play some suited connectors, raise a few nut flush draws and if any one is paying attention you should get paid with your monsters.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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One trick I use is that I pick a hand, say 78s, and play it like AA all night. It helps me develop my post flop skills and it adds a bit of deception to my game.


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I have a similar problem to the OP, but this doesn't sound right to me. Shouldn't position and other players come into play when you decide to 'run' a hand, rather than the cards you have?

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play the standard 2+2 15-20% of the hands and everyone notices that I'm a rock b/c they all playing 40% of their hands. This still doesn't stop them from calling me down when I miss the flop w/overs but whenever I actually hit something, they seem to fold right away.

What do the rest of you guys do to portray a loose fun image w/out giving up EV?

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Hrm...I don't deliberately try to create a loose/fun image, but I certainly do my best to keep the table friendly. I'm usually chatty at the table, but if you're not naturally talkative, I wouldn't spend time/energy trying to improve this less-than-vital poker skill.

It's hard to get people to believe you're not a tight player. Rather than fight the truth, I exploit my tight image. In other words, I'll occasionally bluff. Of course, you still have to keep in mind who you're bluffing. Your opponent has to realize that you're a tight player and are not likely to do this without the goods. If you win without a showdown, don't show your hand.

Check-raising the river when it's HU against a guy who isn't thrilled with his hand, respects your play, and is likely to fold the winner is a fantastic way to risk two bets. I'm successful with this move way more often than the odds require (even so, I don't do it very frequently -- maybe once every other session). It also helps if you've been running well and other players have been noticing. Players fear big stack aggression much more than they fear the same aggression from a little stack. Even at a limit game in a moderately large pot.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

I have a bit of experience so it is easier to play that style. I play mainly SNG's and when the blinds are small, 10-20, 15-30, I will raise when I am first one in the pot if there have been a couple of folds in front of me. I will raise with any suited connector, or any with a gap. Then if an A or K flops bet 3/4 pot if your heads up, 2/3 of the time they will fold - Then u show.

If everyone is not calling me when I raise, then you can raise any decent hand K-10, Q-J A-9 etc. steal some blinds Until they start calling, then tighten up again.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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Are you varying your play or shifting gears? How much time do you spend in selecting a table? Do you occasionally raise on the button with air?

One trick I use is that I pick a hand, say 78s, and play it like AA all night. It helps me develop my post flop skills and it adds a bit of deception to my game.

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You don't need to shift gears at Commerce. Occasionally mixing it up by raising 87s under the gun or raising 87s on the button makes strategic sense at higher limits where your opponents don't suck (I'd assume some 40/80 games -- I've yet to find a 20/40 game where either of these moves makes sense.) At virtually every 20/40 game I've ever played at Commerce, I can fold every hand for four orbits, look down and find AA UTG, raise, and get three callers. There's no need to mix things up. As for raising 87s on the button, this only makes sense if you want people to stick around if the flop is good for you. These people stick around anyways. Your raise will just increase your variance.

Table selection isn't that important at 9/18 and 20/40. The players are generally so bad and the tables change so quickly that seat selection is much, much, much more important than table selection. (That may be true for any game...I've yet to decide.) I've heard that table selection is absolutely essential at 40/80.

Raising on the button with air is a bad idea. Please don't do it.

Don't play 87s like AA. Play it like 87s. Please.

Again, my comments apply specifically to Commerce, and I presume, to most B&M. Online play is likely to be very different.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

With 1 limper raise JTs from mp. Win the showdown. Mention something about that hand being lucky for you.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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This still doesn't stop them from calling me down when I miss the flop w/overs but whenever I actually hit something, they seem to fold right away.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't see how a loose image is going to help you with the problem above. You may be mistaking unfortunate outcomes and/or misjudged plays with an image problem. Most loose players, though they will notice that you play tight, won't care what you may have, they just care if their cards will hit.

Should it amuse you to give that image, try some bluff raises in later streets if headsup. If they fold, you take the pot. If they call down, you can open and say, "I missed." This may help them think you're one of them.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play the standard 2+2 15-20% of the hands and everyone notices that I'm a rock b/c they all playing 40% of their hands. This still doesn't stop them from calling me down when I miss the flop w/overs but whenever I actually hit something, they seem to fold right away.

What do the rest of you guys do to portray a loose fun image w/out giving up EV?

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You're not stealing enough n00b.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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One trick I use is that I pick a hand, say 78s, and play it like AA all night. It helps me develop my post flop skills and it adds a bit of deception to my game.


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I have a similar problem to the OP, but this doesn't sound right to me. Shouldn't position and other players come into play when you decide to 'run' a hand, rather than the cards you have?

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Depends what you are trying to accomplish. If you are sitting at the $25NL table, then I agree this is a poor play. I usually will pull this strategy out after my 3bb raises with KK and AA are folded around. That indicates I need to loosen my starting hands and/or my table image (or leave the table.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

However, I find at the $100 and $200 tables, some people are paying attention, so sometimes you need to do something that makes you appear unpredictable to help your big hands get paid.

Again, the OP asked how can you appear to be a loose player when that is not the style you normally play. Playing a random, yet playable hand like 87s makes it look like you are gambooling it up and will rid you of a rock image. It will also help your post flop playing and opponent reading skills.

Position and table doesn't matter to OP's situation, he wants to appear much looser than he is in reality.

To answer your question, playing suited connectors on the button in multi-way pots or raising with them to steal blinds are sound TAG strategies. Also, if the table is TAGgy, then you should play (and raise) a wider variety of hands.

My post was geared toward a meta game and not a donkfest (where deception only costs you $$$). Table selection is key when you are considering attempting this.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

Thanks for clarifying, 4_2. I think when I read the OP I was thinking cash games, which I have a problem being loose at, whereas tourneys are another story for me.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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Thanks for clarifying, 4_2. I think when I read the OP I was thinking cash games, which I have a problem being loose at, whereas tourneys are another story for me.

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Usually if I am in a cash game and have to play looser than I am accustomed to, then I just leave the table.

If you pardon my curiosity, when you say you have a problem player looser than you are accustomed to in cash were you saying you normally play too loose in cash games or that you play too tight and have trouble loosening up?

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

How to establish a loose image? Start playing loosely. Raise every pot. Always try to steal the blinds. Get vicious with position and reraise raisers and isolate with junk. No better feeling like reraising a raiser with Q5 and seing the flop come down Q5x or 55x, then showing it down and having the original raiser and others at the table talk about how much you suck. You'll get all the action you'll ever want, I promise you. It actually may get annoying for you, since you can never steal the blinds and cannot bluff as much when they catch on, but you'll make more with your middle pairs when they call you down than you ever will with your top pairs and a tight image.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

I guess what I meant by my original post is that I seem to be very readable postlfop when there are low cards on the board. While they still call me down when I have KK on a T high flop, they also call me down when I have AJo and the flop is T high. I think I'm just running badly right now

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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If you pardon my curiosity, when you say you have a problem player looser than you are accustomed to in cash were you saying you normally play too loose in cash games or that you play too tight and have trouble loosening up?

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I play too tight, and have trouble loosening up in cash games. I cannot raise air. In tournaments, it's like I understand the need for plays better, and they make more sense, and it's easier to execute them. In cash games, it just doesn't make sense to try and put moves on people unless I have the cards for it. (At least, in online cash...I never get to play live games anymore).

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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I guess what I meant by my original post is that I seem to be very readable postlfop when there are low cards on the board. While they still call me down when I have KK on a T high flop, they also call me down when I have AJo and the flop is T high. I think I'm just running badly right now

[/ QUOTE ]In the games that we play (mostly lower limit), unique plays and tricks are not so necessary. Save that thinking for a lone casino in the middle of the desert where you see the same eight players weekly. The only way to give off a loose image, as many have responded already, is to play loose. Of course, that decreases your -EV since part of our edge is our stronger starting hands.

You play very well already and I think your recent beats have you flustered. Don't get steered into offbeat approaches. Of course, many of these hands are still player dependent, but stick to your solid game. Based on your description above, try this. Bet when you have it, and check when you don't. Too predictable? Sure. But as you say, they're gonna call you anyway.

This too shall end.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

I'm not trying to change my game too much, just tweak my image. I suppose you're right. It just sucks when you raise 2 limpers w/AJ and the flop comes 8 high and htey both call your flop bet. Then you make the same play w/88 w/the same flop and they just fold to that same flop bet. Maybe I'm just playing w/marked cards [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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I play too tight, and have trouble loosening up in cash games. I cannot raise air. In tournaments, it's like I understand the need for plays better, and they make more sense, and it's easier to execute them. In cash games, it just doesn't make sense to try and put moves on people unless I have the cards for it. (At least, in online cash...I never get to play live games anymore).

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You right that 90% of the time ABC poker will be the most profitable approach at the cash tables. I believe this is certainly the case in limit. In NL, you have to adapt to the mood of the table. My advice is predicated on playing NL.

Do you think your 'tightness' is being noticed by your opponents? For me, this didn't occur until I started playing NL 100 (not sure of the limit equivalent, maybe 1/2). I am dabbling in NL $200 and have noticed that super tight players only get paid by maniacs. If you don't LAG occasionally, raise continuation bets or bluff missed draws (when you suspect your opponent missed as well) you are missing some value.

If you want to practice loosing up your game, drop down a level or two and play a few hands without regard to the cards you have. Play your normal tight way for a couple of orbits and then start raising on the button with air. Then bet any flop with a picture card. Everyone will fold or the guy who hit his monster will raise. This will give you a feel and won't cost you a fortune.

Or try my trick by raising any two suited connectors. You can represent any face card on the flop and should get paid handsomely when you hit a monster.

I am not advocating a loose style, per se, but everyone should be able to play as a LAG when the table situation dictates (short handed, table of rocks, etc.). Versatility is needed as you progress to the higher levels (I am finding this out the hard way right now:))

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

Wonderful advice, 4_2... Thank you for indulging me and the OP!

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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What do the rest of you guys do to portray a loose fun image w/out giving up EV?

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First off, realize that this is not possible. When you are trying to deceive your opponents, you will have to give up some EV to do so, because you will be playing a hand less than optimally. BoxTree had good advice for you: take advantage of your image! The tighter you appear, the easier it is to bluff... so bluff! You will earn value by doing this, and when you finally get called, you will earn future calls (so tighten up again).

If you have a tight image, bluff.
If you have a loose image, value bet.

The cycle continues indefinately, and the process is called changing gears.

EDIT: Oh, and it would be helpful if you posted the game in which you play. My assumption was low-limit fixed-limit online holdem. In live games, talk a lot more, joke around, give hollers during hands. Something else I've started doing is cheering players on when they give action. "Yeah baby, that's what I'm talking about!" "Come on, let's see that family pot i've been waiting for!"
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As for the tournament comments, it is typically a waste of time to advertise (by this I mean playing -EV in the current hand to give a specific image) in an SNG, as by the time players pick up on it, they may be busted or desperate.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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What do the rest of you guys do to portray a loose fun image w/out giving up EV?


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My parents are Korean.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

I sometimes do this is LHE:

I'm in the blind and a player in late position raises. Since a lot of players will make this play with any two high cards or a small pair, I'm usually not much of a dog no matter what I hold. Plus I'm getting 3.5 to 1 on the call for a heads-up flop.

I'll call with any suited cards hoping to flop a flush draw or two pair. I'll reraise with a decent hand. If I miss the flop I fold - with a minimal loss; if I win the hand I always show.

Sometimes I'll get berated for being a fish by the original raiser. This is obviously because that players has an inadequate understanding of position and play from the blinds. If this happens, do not explain why your play was reasonable - just agree that you are a fish.

You should get good action on your premium hands for some time after.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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What do the rest of you guys do to portray a loose fun image w/out giving up EV?


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My parents are Korean.

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Ha!

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

The blinds are a great spot to loosen up a little bit, as it costs less and you are making smaller mistakes by doing so.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

I think if you're gonna loosen up during the blinds you should at least have a plan ready- cause you're up to bat first.

Just a thought.

Re: How do you establish a loose image?
 

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Shouldn't position and other players come into play when you decide to 'run' a hand, rather than the cards you have?

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Players expect you to play more hands and make plays in position. Occassionally making plays out of position will help your image, be harder to read, and keep your opps guessing.

Almost never try and run a hand vs. a calling station, and it's almost always good to consider running a hand against a conservative player who needs a big hand to play a big pot (no limit/pot limit).