Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Stars 22, 1k entrants down to 70 maybe (money started at 81)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (7 handed) converter

CO (t14618)
Button (t70260)
SB (t65588)
BB (t39792)
Hero (t19587)
MP1 (t9743)
MP2 (t13667)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero limps....

Table was typical late 22 style. On the tight side but people were standing up to raises a bit and stealing with decent frequency. I'd been fairly active with my steals but not maniacal.

I fully expect more than one person to absolutely hate this limp. It's counterintuitive and feels funky at this stage. However, given this specific stack situation, I didn't like any of my options. Folding feels way too tight. Raising less than all in basically commits me to call an all in given my stack and hand strength. open pushing is the only other real consideration, but it felt wrong as there are still 6 others to act and some decent stacks out there (and I'd be praying for a coin flip if called).

So I limped. If a short stack pushes I'll probably call, and I'll probably fold if a big stack puts a big raise in. It felt kind of meh, but I didn't expect anyone to mess with my limp without a pretty big hand. I figure AT/KQs/77 type hands will probably limp behind and I can play a flop. I guess I liked the idea of limping for a decent chance at a flop more than folding or pushing.

Blah. Tell me if and why this sucks.


Everett

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

It's not terrible, but I would just push.

I wouldn't necessarily fold to a big stack raise. The later the raiser and the looser his play, the more likely I would call.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I don't see your thinking as all that absurd. The miniraise is another play to consider in this type of situation. (Some will say the miniraise obviously signals a hand that you're looking to get away from - others will say the miniraise obviously signals AA/KK!)

If you get raised, you can definitely form a plan of action based on who raises you. For example, if there's an EP raise, it's likely to be a real hand, but if the button raises, maybe it's just someone who likes to punish limpers. With only 10 BB, 88 is a pretty good hand to gamble with, and your default should be to call a raise unless things look particularly scary.

One advantage of not simply open-pushing is that there are many hands which will give action to a limper (lower pairs, ace-rag) that would never call a push.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Since you're expecting it anyways I'll say it I hate the limp. You're down to <10BBs as the thread clearly states. Before limping I like folding.

Three reasons:
1) If you limp what's the best outcome? You get one or two other limpers hit a set and get paid off. Or it folds to the big blind who checks and then you take it with a bet after the flop.

2)If you limp since it's short handed many poeple realize you probaby won't limp aces here and one of the big stacks in LP/blinds may toss out a nice raise.

3)If you get a couple callers as you very well could with the big stacks in LP/blinds you're more than likely to get a flop you don't like and have to check/fold to a big stack who's betting just because it was checked to him. Or fold when 1 over hits and the big stack in the blind bets second pair and you have no way of knowing what it means and fold the best hand.

If you don't want to commit yourself but don't want to push I would min raise or even toss out t5000. It's amazing how many times late in a tourney this is enough to grab the blinds. And if a big stack reraises you can still dump your hand if it doesn't feel right. Even if the blinds throw out a loose call you will still have enough to push on the flop if checked to and take down the pot. This also most likely gets rid of the SB who probably calls most hands for half a bet in the unraised pot.

At a full table I don't like a push as much. But 7 handed my favorite move here is to push. Worst case you're up against an over pair. Best case you win a coinflip or get a loose call from a big stack with a smaller pair who figured your range of hands for a push from UTG is big. Most likely case though is that you pick up the blinds and give yourself a little more breathing room.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

The problem with limping is that, even if no one else chooses to mess with you, you are giving the blinds an excellent chance to out-flop you. Garbage like Q9 that would have to lay down to any kind of raise gets a 30% chance to out-flop you. It's quite likely that neither blind has a hand that could call a raise, but that between them they have 2-3 overcards to your pair.

You almost have to bet any flop checked to you, hoping to use your position to scare out a T on a flop like AT5. And once you bet, you'll have probably 30%+ of your stack in the middle, so you will not be happy about seeing a check-raise.

I think I'd just push here. You definitely have fold equity against a lot of hands that are 46% against you, and some players might even fold 99 or TT. You're a (very) slight favorite against two overs, but with the substantial overlay from the pot, getting called by AK is still a profitable situation.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

i think this is a must raise. you're in middle position and if you're willing to call a small stack you should put them all in yourslef. Your position is not great and I think you're asking to be called and sucked out on. You probably have the best hand already. I wouldnt mind just taking the blinds with this hand.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I see this play all the time. I don't hate it, however you're probably not getting away from this hand. So why not raise or push to force out a junk hand that could bust you in the blinds.

On the bright side, you may see a flop without a raise after you. Your UTG limp usually throws up a caution flag as players will think you are slowplaying a big hand. However, at a 22 there are a lot of donks who don't see a raise in front of them and push away.

Anyway, how'd it work out for you?

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

A few comments

1) I know I'm giving the blinds a great chance to hit and other players a chance to see a flop with their mediocre stuff, etc etc. But the point is that I'll have a better chance to take the pot if I get to a flop, AND I'll have a better idea of my chances to take this pot once everyone else has had a turn to act and the flop has come down.

2) I think an open push is probably marginally +EV but that limping here has comparable or slightly better EV with much less variance. But what do I care about variance, since all the money is in the top few spots and I obviously need to build as stack? Because I'm a lot better than this field, and I want to maximize my chances to outplay people. That's why I think trying for a flop gives me more EV, and why dodging a high variance small edge play is a good idea.

3) Minraising is an interesting notion, but since there had been some minraising at this table and it would look as much like a cheap blind steal as a monster, I don't think it will instill the necessary uneasiness in people that I want. Perhaps with different table dynamics.

4) I really dislike opening for 5k or 6k since it begs someone to put me all in, and while KJs probably folds to an open push or limps behind my open limp, he may now push over my vulnerable raise since my stack size represents the prefect amount of fold equity for him to make that play.

I still like my limp, mostly because of #2. I feel like plays like this are crucial to maximizing my edge in small buyin MTTs. If this were WCOOP main event I'd be auto-jamming.

Everett

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

what are the antes? since you're only 7-handed, i don't see how i wouldn't push.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

i think i'd be more inclined to do this at a full table.. but only 7 handed:
A) They're more likely to fold to your push
B) The blinds are going to come around faster, so just limping could be tossing away a BB that you'll need badly in a round or so.

I push this.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Antes 100.

And yes, being 7 makes it more tempting. 9 handed I think I open fold. 8 or 7 handed I limp. 6 is close. 5 or fewer I push.

Everett

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I was curious what you were getting at.

I wouldn't consider deviating from the standard push for the following reasons:

1) 10 handed 88 might be marginal EV+, but 7 handed its EV++. (you can email a_plus for math)
2) with 10XBB left you're overvaluing your advantage over the field most of which comes from nuanced betting, and ability to get away from hands. With no chips none of these are a factor starting with this crappy 88.
3) Limping UTG on a small stack telegraphs small pocket or vulnerable hand.
4) Your hand sucks ATF.
5) In an unraised pot it will be at least 3 ways and I don't think you'll be able to move a player off of a better hand than 88. In a raised pot you're no better off than you were with an open push.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Good point, Exit, about the blinds coming around more quickly. I feel like your edge in such a shallow-stacked situation is not nearly as large as you think it is, and that pushing might actually be the lower variance play here. There are so few good flops for you, since you've got no way to get a read on the blinds, and a lot of hands that might just fold to your push, like AJ or KQ, might instead push into you, forcing you either to fold the best hand or take a coin flip rather than winning free money from the pot.

I can't really argue with table dynamics, since I wasn't at the table, so if you think your limp really will deter people from playing back at you, alright. But I am curious to know how you plan to play assuming you do see a flop. It's quite likely to have at least one overcard. Do you fold if a blind leads out, and bet if it's checked to you? What if there's another a limper behind you, and an A or K on the flop? Lead out and fold to a raise?

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I don't think this is horrible. But, what happens when someone in LP limps, SB completes, BB checks, and flop comes down with at least one over and no 8? Come to think of it, what happens if it folds to BB who checks and flop comes with an over? This hand is just too hard to play postflop. If you're playing for set value, the 5/10 rule for cash games says that this is your own decision, leaning towards a fold--since this is a tourny, this is a clear fold if only set value is considered. Thus, there's really no excuse for allowing yourself to see a flop with 88 here. This is push/fold, and 7-handed, I push this.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I think you overestimate your edge and ability to outplay your opponents on the flop with the blinds and ur stack it the sizes they are.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I like it without antes, hate it with antes.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

if the table has been active like you say, i'd push because,
a) you probably have the best hand, and you don't have that much of a stack.
b) its 7 handed,
c) an utg limp seems suspicous to me, and anyone who calls and/or raises is likely to have a strong drawing hand, or a hand thats simply better than yours.

even if the button calls you, you have a big enough stack where it would hurt to double you up.

its ok to just take down the blinds+antes for now, as you may need them soon.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you overestimate your edge and ability to outplay your opponents on the flop with the blinds and ur stack it the sizes they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I actually agree with this point (that several of you have made). And if I manage to double through, then I will have enough chips to outplay some folks, because I can only play so much better with 10 BBs. And its 7 handed and there are antes, which add profitability and increased success rate to the push. Etc etc.

Good discussion, I like keeping my options open though. There may be a place for the odd open limp but I'm more or less agreeing that this isn't one of them. I just love trying to indentify positions where the obvious, standard play isn't the best one. I guess I'm just a little too eager to get creative. That's just what makes poker fun for me.

Everett

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

These threads are always useful.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t15345)
MP1 (t26273)
MP2 (t20595)
CO (t5140)
Button (t27577)
SB (t29303)
BB (t11850)
Hero (t4795)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Action is on me with the short stack. What should I do?

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

[ QUOTE ]
These threads are always useful.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t15345)
MP1 (t26273)
MP2 (t20595)
CO (t5140)
Button (t27577)
SB (t29303)
BB (t11850)
Hero (t4795)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Action is on me with the short stack. What should I do?

[/ QUOTE ]


I fold here, you can still survive another round or two or three without losing all your fold equity... though i suppose 22 holds up similary well when call as 88.

maybe it's a push.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

I push this

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Looks reasonable to me. If you only had like 6 or 7 bb I'd think otherwise, but here, it looks fine.

I'd be inclined to call most single pushes, but fold if there's a push and a call behind.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Uhh maybe I'm retarded and sloppy but if I have 10bb and 88 and am first person not to fold I'm all in every time, including UTG 9-handed. Limping and folding to a raise seems like a terrible plan because people will push hands like ATo, QJ and worse and lower pairs when you limp. I guess if you are thinking really big picture and you are in a tournament where Shania counts for something then maybe you can limp with a bunch of hands here and make it work.... But this is a stars 22 which makes this impossible.

Oh yeah, when you raise you can also win the blinds!

I hate pratt,
-Jason

The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh maybe I'm retarded and sloppy but if I have 10bb and 88 and am first person not to fold I'm all in every time, including UTG 9-handed. Limping and folding to a raise seems like a terrible plan because people will push hands like ATo, QJ and worse and lower pairs when you limp. I guess if you are thinking really big picture and you are in a tournament where Shania counts for something then maybe you can limp with a bunch of hands here and make it work.... But this is a stars 22 which makes this impossible.

Oh yeah, when you raise you can also win the blinds!

I hate pratt,
-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh shoes,

For a $150+12 you're absolutely right. I already said that I autojam in, say, a wcoop event or any event where I think my opponents are decent, aggressive players. But here in a stars 22 (which I've probably played a lot more of than you [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]) I think you see a lot fewer raises than you should. So the limp's not awful to consider 8 or 9 way.

The ENTIRE point of this post was that everyone's gut (including mine) gives the automatic response of "push this shiznit". But here, in this PARTICULAR spot, I felt uneasy-- like there might be a better play. This is how I improve my poker game, by rethinking "automatic" situations to see where I can improve, or if in this particular spot, a less-intuitive line would be more favorable. Un-automatic plays in the right spots can win tournaments. I'm sure you agree. (And FWIW I already posted that I agreed with the push here)

And dont even f***ing tell me that Pratt sucks. I'm one problem set from throwing up.

Everett

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is how I improve my poker game, by rethinking "automatic" situations to see where I can improve, or if in this particular spot, a less-intuitive line would be more favorable. Un-automatic plays in the right spots can win tournaments. I'm sure you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent. Much as I appreciate developing a standard line with good reasoning behind it, we still need to mix up our play to avoid being too predictable, and test the boundaries to see if the standard line can be refined.

Re: The point
 

ok Evee, i acknowledge your point now, but i still jam it here every time

have i mentioned how much i enjoy not being in pratt?
KY

Re: The point
 

Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

Re: The point
 

if it werent for pratt, i too would be playing cards right now instead of being in the damn hudson lab... fuss fuss fuss

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's assume you are always going to call a raise. Does it therefore follow that you are ALWAYS best to just open-push?

It seems to me that there are certain hands, most notably low pairs, that will not call an all-in, but will give you action if you limp or raise a smaller amount. With a relatively short stack, you probably should welcome action in a favorable situation, rather than simply trying to maximize your chance of winning the blinds.

Look at it this way. There are times when check-calling is more profitable on the river than simply betting out. Isn't limping UTG, with the intention of calling a raise, a similar situation? Sometimes it could be right for the same reasons.

Re: Strass
 

what if you open raise and get reraised all in is this an auto call for you? Is there any equity in folding you still have 13k to work with?

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's assume you are always going to call a raise. Does it therefore follow that you are ALWAYS best to just open-push?

It seems to me that there are certain hands, most notably low pairs, that will not call an all-in, but will give you action if you limp or raise a smaller amount. With a relatively short stack, you probably should welcome action in a favorable situation, rather than simply trying to maximize your chance of winning the blinds.

Look at it this way. There are times when check-calling is more profitable on the river than simply betting out. Isn't limping UTG, with the intention of calling a raise, a similar situation? Sometimes it could be right for the same reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get your point BUT I think that limp-calling gets you far more races with AT/KJs type hands here than it gets you dominated situations. In those cases the 3k in blinds and 700 in antes are far to valuable to encourage action. And thats what this particular spot comes down to: 3700 in the pot, 20k stack, and 6 other folks.

However...

This push begs the question.... is 88 any different from 22 here? With the exception of maybe 88 itself, you get the same calls and are in the same spot. I mean 22 "feels" like a fold to me, but it should feel the same as 88 here. So does that make 22 a push? If not, why?

Everett

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah yeah yeah I just dont see how I can limp then fold. That was my buggaboo.

It's not like they are only pushing with 99+.... You gotta call any all in I'd think with the blinds as padding to the pot. Thats my problem...

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's assume you are always going to call a raise. Does it therefore follow that you are ALWAYS best to just open-push?

It seems to me that there are certain hands, most notably low pairs, that will not call an all-in, but will give you action if you limp or raise a smaller amount. With a relatively short stack, you probably should welcome action in a favorable situation, rather than simply trying to maximize your chance of winning the blinds.

Look at it this way. There are times when check-calling is more profitable on the river than simply betting out. Isn't limping UTG, with the intention of calling a raise, a similar situation? Sometimes it could be right for the same reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]


But i think at this point what you want is to pick the route that has the highest rate of success, just limping while it may encourage action from smaller pairs, you'll find yourself in awkward spots on the flop and you just dont have that much room to manuever w/ that stack size.

Maybe i'm just paranoid about playing flops w/ a small stack.

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
This push begs the question.... is 88 any different from 22 here? With the exception of maybe 88 itself, you get the same calls and are in the same spot. I mean 22 "feels" like a fold to me, but it should feel the same as 88 here. So does that make 22 a push? If not, why?


[/ QUOTE ]

About 5% of the time, the board will turn out to be two pair. That is probably good for 88. Say the board is JJ44x, or TT55x, etc. In those cases your PP will supersede the bottom pair and make your hand good -- assuming that neither of you connect with the board.

But just about all two-pair boards are disastrous for 22. Now both players have the same two pair and you've got a pitiful 2 kicker. You don't get to chop the pot. No, no, no! By the time you've digested this, a smug little bot is telling you: "You finished 22nd. Thanks for playing!"

Obviously this is not a super-common outcome. But it's not freakishly rare either. I'd factor it into your thinking.

Re: The point
 

when you use pokerstove to figure out your equity, it takes account of this... and 22 has like 3% less equity than 77 vs probable calling ranges... not a big difference.

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This push begs the question.... is 88 any different from 22 here? With the exception of maybe 88 itself, you get the same calls and are in the same spot. I mean 22 "feels" like a fold to me, but it should feel the same as 88 here. So does that make 22 a push? If not, why?


[/ QUOTE ]

About 5% of the time, the board will turn out to be two pair. That is probably good for 88. Say the board is JJ44x, or TT55x, etc. In those cases your PP will supersede the bottom pair and make your hand good -- assuming that neither of you connect with the board.

But just about all two-pair boards are disastrous for 22. Now both players have the same two pair and you've got a pitiful 2 kicker. You don't get to chop the pot. No, no, no! By the time you've digested this, a smug little bot is telling you: "You finished 22nd. Thanks for playing!"

Obviously this is not a super-common outcome. But it's not freakishly rare either. I'd factor it into your thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously 22 has a lower expectation than 88. But if it's only like 3%, then that's not really enough to make pushing 22 wrong and 88 correct.

I'm just wondering if all of the posters that advocate pushing 88 would have said to fold 22. I really think that if my OP had 22 instead of 88 some "push" people would say fold. You see what I'm getting at.

So... everyone agree to push ducks here as well?

What about 54s? According to pokerstove, with a 88+ AJ+ calling range, 88 is 39%, 22 is 36%, and 54s is 33%. I mean they all fare roughly the same when called.

Everett

Re: The point
 

I'd take that 3% difference seriously.

Pushing is a make-or-break moment for the entire tournament. Let's say for argument's sake that you play this situation 30 times and the difference between pushing with 88 and 22 matters only once. That's still enough to change your ROI meaningfully. It's conceptually the same as a 3% difference in rake.

Do we exaggerate the difference in our minds? Maybe. Should we ignore it? No.

Re: The point
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd take that 3% difference seriously.

Pushing is a make-or-break moment for the entire tournament. Let's say for argument's sake that you play this situation 30 times and the difference between pushing with 88 and 22 matters only once. That's still enough to change your ROI meaningfully. It's conceptually the same as a 3% difference in rake.

Do we exaggerate the difference in our minds? Maybe. Should we ignore it? No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, missing the point. Yes, there is a difference. Yes, 3% is not 0%. But is it enough of a difference to make 88 a push and 22 a fold? That's my question. If they were 15% apart then it would be a lot clearer. I don't think 3% is enough, but I want to hear some thoughts.

Everett

Re: The point
 

Since this is a low buy-in tourney, if you push, I think the small stacks will sometimes look you up with smaller pairs, making 8s a much more powerful hand than 2s (I speak from the experience of having my 5s smashed by 7s).

Will

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

Alright, gonna take a stab at doing the math for this.


Since it's 7 handed i'll make calling ranges a little loose.

77+,AJs+,AJo+, calls the push, which is 7% of hands.

65% it folds to your push.

So pushing, no matter what you have, wins 3700, 65% of the time.

3700 * .65 = 2405


88

When called, 88 will have 42% equity.

.42 * 23287 = 9780.54
.58 * -19587 = -11360.46

-1579.92 * .35 = -552.97

2405 - 552.97 = +1852 chips on average... Pretty good.


22

When called 22 will have 35% equity

so .35* 23287 = 8150
.65* -19587 = -127331

= -4581

2405 - 4581 = -2176 chips on average.

----


Eh? Guess 22's not as equal to 88 as i thought.

Re: Yes, I limped UTG with 10 BBs
 

You forgot to multiply -4581 by .35.