Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Both 8-handed, game is not so good.

Hand 1: Second orbit of session for me. UTG (aggessive player) raises. Folded to me in CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I 3-bet. Folded to UTG who 4-bets. I call. Headsup.

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I call.

TURN: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I raise...

Hand 2: Two limpers to SB (decent player) who raises. I have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in BB and 3-bets. All call. Four to the flop.

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet. One limper and SB calls. Three to the turn.

TURN: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet. Limper folds. SB check-raises, I 3-bet...

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

I play these both the same, with the possible exception of three-betting pre-flop in the first hand. Post-flop lines seems pretty straightforward in both cases. The turn three-bet in hand two I think is certainly the way to go given you have a hand that is very likely to be good and have like 13 outs to basically unbeatable hands.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Hand 1: If you fold to a 3-bet then fine. If called how is your river plan?

Hand 2: standard...

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

I think raising the turn and folding to three bet in hand 1 is probably better than calling down. My main thought is the value in getting our opponent to fold a mediocre diamond (something like T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) probably outweighs the few negatives to a raise there (possibly getting raised off the best hand/forgoing some like outs/encouraging an inferior hand to fold the turn which may have made a thin value bet on the river, etc...). It is certainly read dependent, though. If our villain might three-bet with a combo hand or something like that I think calling down definitely becomes better.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Is the 3-bet in the first hand standard??

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the 3-bet in the first hand standard??

[/ QUOTE ]
depends a lot on what he means by his read of "agressive player"

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

HAnd 2: I don't understand why 3betting the turn is better than just calling and getting another bet on the river. You aren't afraid of giving a free card here. If he has a set then you are making your odds worse by raising.

What hand could he have that we are scared of him drawing to? I can't think of any, so why wouldn't we just call and get an extra bet in on the river?

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is the 3-bet in the first hand standard??

[/ QUOTE ]
depends a lot on what he means by his read of "agressive player"

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is correct. If the villain was a tight raiser, this would be a standard fold. If the opponent is a loose rasier, a 3 bet is better than calling in my opinion if the opponent is capable of folding AQ,AK,AJ,AT unimproved somewhere in the hand.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Hand 1. Fold preflop. If raiser is weak, loose, OK, three bet...but you just said he's aggressive.

Hand 2. Call turn raise. By three betting, you are likely to either get a fold by a dead hand (that might bet river) or capped by a stronger hand (you said the guy was decent and he is CR'ing a big blind three bettor with THAT board?). 13 outs is alot...but it is still a dog.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is the 3-bet in the first hand standard??

[/ QUOTE ]
depends a lot on what he means by his read of "agressive player"

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is correct. If the villain was a tight raiser, this would be a standard fold. If the opponent is a loose rasier, a 3 bet is better than calling in my opinion if the opponent is capable of folding AQ,AK,AJ,AT unimproved somewhere in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Information was not clear. He had been raising often in my two orbits of play, where most of them did not reach a showdown. Aggressive? Yes. Loose-Aggressive? Still not sure. I was bound to find out in this hand.

Reraising preflop or folding was a very close decision. I could have folded the flop also, but chose to make a move on the turn. It just so happens my card came out.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the 3-bet in the first hand standard??

[/ QUOTE ]Definitely not. I thought it may have been a good time to do so. (see response above) Just unsure of both hands, hence, this post.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

I play both the same.

Jeff

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

I'd fold the flop in hand 1.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2. Call turn raise. By three betting, you are likely to either get a fold by a dead hand (that might bet river) or capped by a stronger hand (you said the guy was decent and he is CR'ing a big blind three bettor with THAT board?). 13 outs is alot...but it is still a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the idea of 3-betting here and checking down the river if you don't improve. I also think holding the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] makes it likely you'll get the free showdown against most players. You're likely to lose your market those times that another ace, king, or spade comes, so you'll want to get that extra bet in here on the turn. I also don't think a turn check-raiser is going to have a dead hand here all that often.

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Hand 1: Not sure I like the 3 bet pf. UTGs raising standards mean your domminated more than likely. Not sure I like the turn raise either b/c your not folding a better hand or a lone heart. Your only folding a hand that your beating w/exactly 2 outs like TT or JJ w/out a heart.

Hand 2: I like your line a lot

BTW, check out my post in the hush forum. You might remember the hand [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Hand 1: How bad would it really be to fold preflop? Cause that's my play. UTG raises from competent players, even aggressive ones, worry me when I have KQ. (I know you already addressed this.)

How is he playing AK here? If you just call the turn, will he bet the river with it unimproved? Because if so, then it seems you can get the same money without risking a 3-bet from AA or KK or a set or an Ax flush draw. I assume we're almost neglecting the made-flush possibility.

Hand 2: Seems pretty standard. If you get 4-bet I think you should feel sick and call down (if you don't fill).

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both 8-handed, game is not so good.

Hand 1: Second orbit of session for me. UTG (aggessive player) raises. Folded to me in CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I 3-bet. Folded to UTG who 4-bets. I call. Headsup.

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I call.

TURN: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I raise...

[/ QUOTE ]

First, find a better game, maybe a 20/40 (even though it's a long walk at the Commerce).

I think your line is fine but I'll add a few nits. BTF this is the sort of hand you can sometimes cold call an early raiser from the back. It helps if you also do it with somewhat stronger hands such as TT or AQs. Like the combo of the flop call and turn raise. If reraised on the turn you probably can lay down, unless UTG is insanely aggressive.


The second hand seems fine.

~ Rick

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold the flop in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

But gymrat plays in LA and he said UTG is aggressive, not tight aggressive. This means median hand is about QJs or a pair of nines. Plus he's soooted!

~ Rick

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

I like both hands and play them identically. (Eh...in the first hand, I do like Rick said: Sometimes I cold-call (as I would occasionally do with AQs and TT), sometimes I 3-bet, and sometimes I fold.)

And I believe the likelihood that you won either of these hands is somewhere between zero and negative zero. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

Yeah...if you are pretty sure you won't get capped (As certainly helps), but if I'm the SB with a flush there, I probably cap (thinking big blind is on AA, KK, AK).

Re: Too aggressively played? Live 15/30
 

This is one of the rare circumstances where just calling preflop is also an option. If you think the raiser might not fold AJ or AT or worse to a rag flop and might play back at you with a suited 20 on a semibluff, it means you have to hit your hand to win. So you might as well save yourself two bets, and since your hand is kind of like a suited connector you really don't mind that much if the blinds call as you're getting decent implied odds. I still prefer folding preflop, and I think I even like 3 betting second best, but I would at least strongly consider just calling.

RIVER AND RESULTS
 

Hand 1: Thanks for all the terrific replies and advice. You're right, Rick, the 20 game at Commerce is a heck of a lot better than the 15 game at Hawaiian Gardens. I don't like the way I played this hand. However, I had to either make him lay down his hand on the turn (JJ, TT, AK, AQ, or find out if he's capable of mucking even bigger) or dump it on the flop.

TURN: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG bets, I raise. He gives a big sigh and calls. Ah, crap!

RIVER: rag

He checks and I check behind. He shows K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and my hand is no good.

Hand 2: I thought my turn raise may have been a bit overaggressive, but since it was headsup AND I had the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I knew he couldn't go over the top of me. He was certainly a decent player, and with the "untightness" of the table, he would have capped it preflop with AA or KK to get the money in rather than fool around. I am only behind to Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], which seemed very reasonable. I was going to check the river unimproved.

TURN: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet. Limper folds. SB check-raises, I 3-bet, SB calls.

RIVER: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB angrily checks, I bet, he calls.

I show my nutflush and he shows his neighbor his cards and throws his cards into the muck...very pissed at me. I'm sensing Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I wanted to see his cards, but was not about to be a prick about it.

Re: RIVER AND RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, Rick, the 20 game at Commerce is a heck of a lot better than the 15 game at Hawaiian Gardens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking you were at Commerce playing the 15/30 "one chip small blind nut peddler game", which is now located near the 9/18 games. It's a long hike to the 20/40 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

~ Rick

Re: RIVER AND RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're right, Rick, the 20 game at Commerce is a heck of a lot better than the 15 game at Hawaiian Gardens.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking you were at Commerce playing the 15/30 "one chip small blind nut peddler game", which is now located near the 9/18 games. It's a long hike to the 20/40 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].
~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]Ugh, even a masochist like me won't play the Commerce 15 game!

Re: RIVER AND RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, even a masochist like me won't play the Commerce 15 game!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played it while waiting for the $400 NL. It's amazing how much the single $5 small blind has ruined it.

BTW, remember this Speed Racer RGP post? (note that you probably need to scroll to the top to get the lead post).

~ Rick