Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

What is the optimal VPIP and PFR% to have in 6-max NL ring games?

My stats after 50k hands is 27,9%. I think my VPIP should be much, much lower. Any thoughts?

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

Probably around 20/7 if you're not too confident in your postflop play.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

The real answer is that your VPIP and PFR are going to be different depending on the texture of the game you are in. 6-max games come in all flavors, and the best way to profit is to play in a manner that's opposite the general trend of the table. LAGGY play with lots of continuation betting will enable you to crush the tight/passive games. However, TAGGY play and simply betting your solid holdings for value is what will get you the money in the loose/aggressive games.

While I don't think these should serve as a guideline, if you want to see the stats for a profitable 4-tabler, my stats for 4 tabling 6-max games at Party Poker are the following:

$25NL: Hands = 30570
VPIP = 26.49%
PFR = 14.30%
BB/100 = 10.58

$100NL: Hands = 55430
VPIP = 22.22%
PFR = 14.10%
BB/100 = 4.41

As you can see, I play LAGGY in these games. As the other poster said, solid postflop play is a must.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

the funny thing about 6max is that a lot of styles can be winning styles. i have a VPIP of ~21% because i am a supa nit and i have a healthy winrate. i have seen thinking lags around ~30-35% that are winning players also. i think it really comes down to what u r comfortable with and where your strengths lie.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I am averaging 25% VP$IP and 10% PFR but like Tony said this variates quite big depending on the table I am at.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I'm playing 19vpip 10pfr over my last 25k and running at 18PTBB/100.

Many different styles are profitable at NL. Truthfully, at any limit NL, all your money is made postflop. That's why many high limit NL players say that it's really tough to make a mistake preflop.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I can't seem to get above 21% VPIP. Are you playing more marginal hands up front like AT, KQ, QJ, JT... or are you playing basically anything from the button if there are big stacks limping in?

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I limp in with ATo, KQo utg but not QJ,JT, then I often raise a lot of marginal crap when I am first in on the button or in CO like suited one or two gappers, since I often can take it down preflop or after the flop with a continuation bet.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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Probably around 20/7 if you're not too confident in your postflop play.

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This is right on, especially if you're going to 4 table.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I've heard that 20/10 is good.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I think tight and solid is really the easiest way to beat these games... it's much easier to multi table. Incidentally, I don't mean to thread jack, but do most 6max players 4 table? I usually play 2 6max games and 2 ring games... 4 tabling 6max is intense.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I cant four table 6 max very well, but many do. I can play 2 ring and 2 (6 max) fairly comfortably once i've been there ahile and gotten acclimated.

Ideally, i'd probably stick with 3 tables, 2 short and one full.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I sometimes wonder what my BB/100 would be if I played less tables. The bankroll requirements to play 4 $100NL tables are less than the bankroll requirements to play 1 $400NL table though (hmmm...perhaps I'm starting another thread with that comment).

With respect to my VPIP, I raise with almost anything preflop if I am CO or Button and first one in. Like Jocke_F, I tend to take down the pot on the flop with a continuation bet (2/3 pot is my preferred bet size). The biggest problem 4-tabling with this strategy is that if you are tired or on autopilot, it's hard to identify soon enough at which tables you need to put the brakes on. Against calling stations or other hyper aggressive opponents, you need to switch to classic, TAGGY play. Poker Ace HUD is really helpful, but you need to make sure that you don't get lazy, or else you'll miss the nuances of your opponents' playing styles. You can catch nuances when 4 tabling, but you risk becoming antisocial (my cell phone, AIM, and email are pretty much always off).

After a rough run at $20-$40 and $500NL in Vegas, I've actually been 6-tabling low stakes to build my bankroll back up.

4 $25NL tables and 2 $20+$2 STTs have been the mix (I can't handle more than 4 6-max tables, but my STT strategy is really straightforward) . Suffice to say, I am completely wiped out after these sessions, which usually last 5-6 hours. Today, I just 4 tabled STTs to give my mind a break.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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I think tight and solid is really the easiest way to beat these games... it's much easier to multi table. Incidentally, I don't mean to thread jack, but do most 6max players 4 table? I usually play 2 6max games and 2 ring games... 4 tabling 6max is intense.

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I play at least 4 6 max tables and 4 full ring ones, sometimes a couple more 6 max tables, sometimes the six max tables will also get down to 4 handed or so, in which case it can get a bit intense.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

Playing at a low level (NL25), I've 5 tabled 6max and felt ok doing it... I regularly 4table and don't have any big problems. I use Poker Ace HUD.

VPIP of 20, pfr of 6. I can't raise more hands profitably yet...

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

appreciate all the replies guys, thanks

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I'm running about 26/19/5.0 at 400NL. The high PFR basically comes from isolating weaker players with marginal hands. The bigger the skill difference between you and the limper in front of you, the more hands you should raise.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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I'm running about 26/19/5.0 at 400NL. The high PFR basically comes from isolating weaker players with marginal hands. The bigger the skill difference between you and the limper in front of you, the more hands you should raise.

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Interesting. I don't usually raise marginal hands to isolate limpers, I raise to isolate the blinds/steal the blinds. If a limper is in the pot I'm less likely to raise marginal hands.

Do you raise bad limpers from any position or just the button?

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

At NL25+50 I played with a VIP with fluxuated between 30-35%. These games tended to be tight so you could steal ALOT with continuation bets.

At NL100 I've screwed right down to 21% becuse the games seems to have taken a massive jump in aggression and playing tight is by far the best response. In addition I'm still feeling my way in these games so playing tight is a natural response untill you get a better handle on the games texture.

At NL25+50 I managed a winrate of 9.35 over 30k hands. At NL100 I'm currently going at 10.71 over 10k hands so both styles seem to be successful.

If you play with a VIP of 35% you'll have to play differently postflop from playign with a VIP of 20% you just have to get used to it. As long as you're inside that range you don't have to worry about honing your statistics into 'perfect figures' because they're arn't any.

*EDIT* oh and I pretty much consistently raise rounghly half of the hands I play whether thats 35 or 20 *EDIT*

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I just started playing NL50 6 max, single tabling it.

My stats are 45/15/4. I guess this is hyper-agressive uber-lag?

Over my first 1k hands I am at 31BB/100. (obviously not sustainable)

Am I just asking for a huge downswing playing this way?

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I'm around 30/22, but I don't think that's optimal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

Er, yes basically although at NL50 you can get away with it to an extent because people do fold a fair bit. However you'll hit a streak where people actually have hand and lose a lot very quickly. Whats your acceptable hand range to get up to 45%?

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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Whats your acceptable hand range to get up to 45%?

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LOL, you know the answer

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

hand range, lol... lets see.

any pair obviously.
AK-10o
A9-A2s
all SCs except 23s
a whole lot of suited 1 and 2 gappers, 810s, 46s etc.

basically i raise in position everytime and take down most pots with continuation bets.

People give me tons of action because of my style and will play for there whole stack with top pair. so ya know, it works for me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I ran around 16/7 preflop all the way up to 3/6 6-max for a winrate around 8-10 PTBB/100. It's quite possible to win as a super-nit, and it's also possible to win as less of a nit (I play around 20/15 now). The important thing is making plays based on your opponents, so all of those "no reads" posts are the reason you're not winning as much as you could. If you pay attention to every player, it will make a lot more of a difference than watching your preflop standards.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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I ran around 16/7 preflop all the way up to 3/6 6-max for a winrate around 8-10 PTBB/100. It's quite possible to win as a super-nit, and it's also possible to win as less of a nit (I play around 20/15 now). The important thing is making plays based on your opponents, so all of those "no reads" posts are the reason you're not winning as much as you could. If you pay attention to every player, it will make a lot more of a difference than watching your preflop standards.

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Did they stop giving you action at 2/4 playing that tight at all? I think playing a 16/7 game is fine as long as you use good table selection.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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I'm running about 26/19/5.0 at 400NL. The high PFR basically comes from isolating weaker players with marginal hands. The bigger the skill difference between you and the limper in front of you, the more hands you should raise.

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Interesting. I don't usually raise marginal hands to isolate limpers, I raise to isolate the blinds/steal the blinds. If a limper is in the pot I'm less likely to raise marginal hands.

Do you raise bad limpers from any position or just the button?

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Raising limpers is very good with tons of hands. Playing a bad player, who you know is bad and you know why they are bad (i.e. have a decent read on... calling station, LAG, whatever) with money in the pot and position is ++EV.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

Edge is right on when he says that you have to pay attention to your opponents. As much as it would be nice if we could determine optimal playing strategy as a function of oppenents' x/y/z, and finding an optimal x/y/z of our own, the fact is that there is much more to a player. x/y/z is only scratching the surface. Your personal x/y/z will be a function of the types of games you are playing in, but when you are playing, you aren't thinking "I need to play this had to achieve my target x/y/z." Instead, you are hopefully thinking, "my opponent's x/y/z combined with the way I've seen him play prior hands indicates that _____ is the highest EV way to play my hand."

Regarding evaluating your own play, the most important statistic is ultimately the performance one, your BB/100. Unfortunately, this number doesn't converge until you've played at least 50,000 hands (more like 100,000+). I imagine there is already stuff posted somewhere on this topic, but if anyone is interested, I can post a calculation in a different thread showing why you need so many hands for a reliable BB/100.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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I ran around 16/7 preflop all the way up to 3/6 6-max for a winrate around 8-10 PTBB/100. It's quite possible to win as a super-nit, and it's also possible to win as less of a nit (I play around 20/15 now). The important thing is making plays based on your opponents, so all of those "no reads" posts are the reason you're not winning as much as you could. If you pay attention to every player, it will make a lot more of a difference than watching your preflop standards.

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Excellent post. Preflop laginess cannot make up for lack of reads and bad postflop skills.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

What are some examples of making plays based on opponents? And any thing in particular to look for to take advantage of? This may warrant its own thread.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

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What are some examples of making plays based on opponents? And any thing in particular to look for to take advantage of? This may warrant its own poker forum, library of books, lifelong study...

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Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

I play $50NL, and I pay particular attention to how people bet, not just their bare stats. A guy minbetting all the time is not really aggressive, whereas a guy who always overbets the pot is.

I take note of a guy who's standard play is to overbet the pot (say $2.70 pot, guy bets $3). Then I let him take the lead betting and get him to bluff all the money to me. A lot of players are willing to try to push players out, but will run away if they meet resistance. Most of the time, you can call them down with top pair reasonable kicker and you'll see a lot of bluffs or mid/low pairs.

That being said, I'm trying to limp in a lot more. Unfortunately, I recently moved, and have to play at the library, so I can't keep track of my performance with PokerTracker, but I noticed that I'm seeing a ton of bad Aces and Kings calling me with top pair. I remember when I played the 20/7 strategy with continuation bets, all I'd see were sets and higher.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

On Party Poker, a min. bet from early position on the flop is virtually always a ploy to try to get a cheap draw (usually a flush draw), or to get to the river cheaply with a cheese hand (bottom pair with a weak kicker, for instance). Some players use it as a trap, but most of the time, you can bet slightly more than pot after a min. bet and take the pot uncontested.

Re: Optimal VPIP and PFR% for 6-max NL ring?
 

Depends on the table texture.

If you select for medium-high VP$iP, low PFR, low average pot tables (passive) then you can run over the table with a LAG 35%/15% style.

If you select for highest pot size that usually means you'll be in 'bear hunt' mode and might end up 18%/5% or sthg..

Also it's going to be easier to play TAG if you are playing 4 tables and easier to LAG it up if you are on just 2...

So are no 'optimal' figures when you can select the type and number of tables before you sit at them.