Huuuge River Overbet
 

Very loose, live 2/5NL game, $500 max buy-in. I'm a little under that at the moment, other people's stacks are all over the map. If anyone's been paying attention (this is a live 2/5 game, after all) my image is very tight, as I've barely played a hand in over an hour at the table.

UTG is a very loose player who plays 60-80% of his hands, so his range is really just about anything. However, after the flop he's normally pretty straight-forward--as much as I can tell in the time I've been there, every time he's bet, he's had the goods (even if it's goods made from Q2o). He has me covered.

I limp in the hijack with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] after a bunch of limpers. Seven people see a flop of:

J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

$34 in the pot. Checks to me, I bet $20. Folds around to UTG who calls, everyone else folds.

Turn ($72 in pot): (J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, check.

River ($72 in pot): (J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets $200. I...???

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

Someone must have an opinion. Or is this just such an obvious play? I'm a limit player trying to learn NL, so help is greatly appreciated.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

in my experience when a donk overbets he has the nuts or close to it, so i vote fold. my guess is a slowplayed J that filled up at some point that just knows u will think he is bluffing... the only thing that makes this a little tougher is that both draws made it on the river and u are ahead of a large range of them.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

what j fills up here? J-4? j-3? j-2? limped from utg?

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

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what j fills up here? J-4? j-3? j-2? limped from utg?

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i know it sounds retarded but this is a live game and in my experience, people will play just about anything from any postiion. the op seemed to describe villain this way too.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
in my experience when a donk overbets he has the nuts or close to it, so i vote fold. my guess is a slowplayed J that filled up at some point that just knows u will think he is bluffing... the only thing that makes this a little tougher is that both draws made it on the river and u are ahead of a large range of them.

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Those were the competing lines of thought running through my head when he bet. Was he value-betting a FH, or did he just river a smaller flush or an improbable straight?

He hadn't made bets like that, at least that I've seen, without having a good hand. And he's been respecting the flush when it hits, etc.

The problem was that I think he may have viewed me as someone he could push around. And he very well could have just had a bare J, or made the straight, or had been on a flush draw himself.

I thought he would have been a bit more aggressive with just a J on the flop, so I had to discount that quite a bit, so having a J that just filled up actually seemed to be less likely than either having flopped a FH, or hitting his 33 or 22, or rivering a flush.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

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what j fills up here? J-4? j-3? j-2? limped from utg?

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Yes, he would definitely play hands like that from UTG. I mentioned this in the original description.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a very loose player who plays 60-80% of his hands, so his range is really just about anything. However, after the flop he's normally pretty straight-forward--as much as I can tell in the time I've been there, every time he's bet, he's had the goods (even if it's goods made from Q2o).

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

Anyways, I ended up folding getting only 1.36:1, and figuring I probably ran into a flopped FH, with a turned or rivered full house also a possibility. The guy generally respected a flush that got there, so I guessed he was hoping I'd hit a flush and pay off an abnormally large value-bet.

The other possibilites were that he hit a flush as well (some of which could still beat me), or was just taking a stab at the pot with his A4 or whatever after I'd shown weakness. I just didn't think those possibilities were likely enough to warrant a call.

It's good to hear that people think an overbet like that is often someone with the nuts hoping for a call from someone who thinks they're bluffing. Makes me feel better about the fold.

FWIW, after the hand he claimed to only had a 4, despite the fact that I never saw him bluff-bet the river (cuz in this game, there's almost always a caller and he had it when betting time after time).

What do people think of the flop and turn play? Standard? I thought the flop bet was a little questionable, but given my tight image I figured I'd win the pot right there unless someone had a J.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

I think I'd call here and not think twice for a couple of reasons.

1) You showed weakness on the turn...a lot of people would bluff here even if they aren't big bluffers, and I also notice that people who bluff in live games usually make a huge bet bigger than the size of the pot so they can brag about how they outplayed you.

2) Flush just came, he could of very well made a lower flush and is hoping for a call with his big bet. Since you said he plays any two there is a possibility of this.

3) I'm not saying this should be a basis for any call, but you made the hand you were drawing for, I think you have to call here.

4) He could very well be betting a jack here thinking it's good and not putting you on a flush draw.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

I agree with the above. I personally think he had a jack since he did not show his hand and wanted to keep people thinking he is a little nuts. It is possible he made the boat but I think against someone playing this many hands, and considering your very tight image you need to call here.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

EZ fold. You said he played strait forward. You put 25 bucks in the pot, now you are gonna put in 175$ more? Just hope that next time he does this you have a hand you can call with.

Pretty much the only time to call this is if you have a strong read or you have watched the guy get out of line at the table.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

I'd probably fold here. I've seen a lot of bets like this from someone who has the boat and hopes you just made your flush. There should be better opportunities to take this donk's money.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's good to hear that people think an overbet like that is often someone with the nuts hoping for a call from someone who thinks they're bluffing.

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I think I'd put him on a flush before a boat, though. He could have the nut flush, but he could also be blasting with a lower flush not suspecting you beat him.

If he's filled up and hoping you just made your flush, doesn't he bet some amount that's less likely to make you think and more likely to induce you to raise? $200 in a $75 pot has you thinking. $50 or $75 into the same pot seems to me more likely to be called or raised. Is he smart enough to make a "please don't call" bet like $200 when he really wants a call?

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

I think I'd call with the ace-high flush here, but not the king-high.

Boat's possible...but the jack-x combinations are all pretty weak.

Of course, the odds of him holding 2 spades isn't all that great either, but I've seen it happen.

Personally, if I have trips, and a 3rd suit comes down, I'm not gonna be betting huge into the hand. More than likely he has a flush or boat of some type.

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

Some good advice: do NOT chase flushes / straights into paired flops -- you could already be drawing dead or could be up against an opponent that 1) has a MADE HAND and 2) has MORE outs than you (trips drawing to a boat = 10 outs vs your 9 outs to a flush).... [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

I'd have let this one go 1st chance I had -- there's ALWAYS another hand coming........ [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Huuuge River Overbet
 

After reading this thread, I played the following hand (1/2NL Pokerstars):

I start the hand with $355, opponent has over $300 also.

I'm in the BB w/ K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. There are 4 limpers around to me...I raise to $11. UTG limper calls, everyone else folds.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

I bet $15 and he raises to $298. What could he have? Maybe a set, but why the hell would he raise so much? After coming close to not following my own advise about folding, I finally come to my senses and lay it down.

I type "nice bet, i guess"...he shows me Q9 for the flopped nut straight. Then he types "i didn't want you sucking out a flush on me".

Stunning.