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-   -   77, raising PF (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=347169)

private joker 09-29-2005 07:46 PM

77, raising PF
 
MP2 is in his first orbit, but so far he seems pretty unexceptional. BB is a 15/8/2 TAG.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

This is why I raise 77 in this spot, right? To get away postflop?

Nick C 09-29-2005 07:57 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
After a bet and a call on that board, versus a PFR who has yet to act, I'm thinking you're probably not ahead all that often.

And when you are currently ahead, you probably have a lot of cards to dodge twice.

The fold looks good to me.

hellite 09-29-2005 08:46 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
I like the fold, I just wonder how you are connecting this fold to your preflop raise.

09-29-2005 08:47 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
Sorry, what does 15/8/2 mean?

damaniac 09-29-2005 08:49 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
Good raise, good fold, but we're raising to isolate as well as represent strength and take it down on a lot of flops 2 or 3 way as well. If you mean that, by limping, someone will bet into you with nothing on a flop like this if you don't raise preflop, well yes, but the frequency of flops like this and an opponent bluffing you out of the pot are fairly rare I think, while you'll get this HU or 3-way pretty often.

chief444 09-29-2005 08:49 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
Looks good.

paperboyNC 09-29-2005 08:54 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, what does 15/8/2 mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP/PFR/AGRR

Voluntary Put in Pot = 15%
Preflop Raise = 8%
Postflop Aggression = 2

bakku 09-29-2005 09:08 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I raise 77 in this spot, right? To get away postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope not

private joker 09-29-2005 09:10 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I raise 77 in this spot, right? To get away postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope not

[/ QUOTE ]

What I mean is it's easier to interpret TAG's bet. It's more likely he's betting a K than a diamond draw, is it not? I mean, there's always a % chance he's betting a draw or small pocket pair, but when there's a PFR, does this make his bet a bit stronger? I dunno. You could also argue that because I raised PF he would be check-raising a K.

bakku 09-29-2005 09:27 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I raise 77 in this spot, right? To get away postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope not

[/ QUOTE ]

What I mean is it's easier to interpret TAG's bet. It's more likely he's betting a K than a diamond draw, is it not? I mean, there's always a % chance he's betting a draw or small pocket pair, but when there's a PFR, does this make his bet a bit stronger? I dunno. You could also argue that because I raised PF he would be check-raising a K.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok that's fine, i thought you meant something else

shant 09-29-2005 09:29 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
I'd bet diamonds into the TAG PFR, is that wrong? As I see it I'll either get you to fold AQ or 88 or whatever, and I also trap the other dude inbetween and even if you raise that other guy is stuck padding the pot.

private joker 09-29-2005 10:03 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet diamonds into the TAG PFR, is that wrong? As I see it I'll either get you to fold AQ or 88 or whatever, and I also trap the other dude inbetween and even if you raise that other guy is stuck padding the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thought too -- after I folded. I started thinking TAG would c/r a K and bet diamonds. That made me question my fold, so I posted this. But then I don't have enough of a read on MP to know what his call means. He could be a calling station with nothing; he could be slowplaying a 6, or he could have a weak K. Showdown just seemed like a long way away and my hand has little chance to improve if I'm behind.

Nick C 09-29-2005 10:09 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
I started thinking TAG would c/r a K and bet diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might checkraise a king, but I wonder if that's really best. Hand protection isn't really a huge issue, on this flop.

Nick C 09-29-2005 10:12 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
I have a question. What do we do if MP2 folds to the flop bet?

I think the decision becomes more difficult then.

private joker 09-29-2005 10:15 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question. What do we do if MP2 folds to the flop bet?

I think the decision becomes more difficult then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. I think I raise, bet the turn, and take a free showdown. If I'm 3-bet or checkraised on the turn, I don't even see the river.

Nick C 09-30-2005 07:40 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question. What do we do if MP2 folds to the flop bet?

I think the decision becomes more difficult then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. I think I raise, bet the turn, and take a free showdown. If I'm 3-bet or checkraised on the turn, I don't even see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this seems like a reasonable line.

I think we're an underdog on the flop to BB's range, though. I'm not sure, but that's what I suspect. If BB needed at least a flush draw to lead the flop, we're probably an underdog, as many flush draws (the ones with two overcards to our 7's) are an approimate coinflip versus us, with two cards to come, whereas we're way behind any king or 6.

Still, if BB will sometimes take a stab with a hand like AT, figuring the flop probably missed you and MP2 also, then that changes the situation, and getting him out of the pot as soon as possible would be a good thing.

Anyway, part of the difficulty I'm having here is that I don't have a good sense of what a 15/8 player is calling with preflop in the BB at 5/10. I can't put him on a preflop range with much confidence, and I don't really know how to interpret the flop lead either.

But the more he's worried (preflop) about domination with so-so kings, and the more he's willing to play suited, semi-connected hands in a 3-way pot, the greater the chances are that he's betting a draw.

Borodog 09-30-2005 07:58 PM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think we're an underdog on the flop to BB's range, though. I'm not sure, but that's what I suspect. If BB needed at least a flush draw to lead the flop, we're probably an underdog, as many flush draws (the ones with two overcards to our 7's) are an approimate coinflip versus us, with two cards to come, whereas we're way behind any king or 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This is the crux of the matter for me. We are either massively behind with two outs, or an approximate coinflip. Particularly with the middleman in there calling with who knows what (pocket 8s for all we know), this is an easy fold for me. The pot is still relatively small, I've got 2 small bets invested. Meh. I wait for a better spot.

bryan4967 10-01-2005 12:21 AM

Re: 77, raising PF
 
[ QUOTE ]
The pot is still relatively small, I've got 2 small bets invested. Meh. I wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]


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