Abortion = less crime?
 

Just reading Freakonomics and I find it very interesting. The author talked about the decline in crime since 1995. A lot of people attribute it to better police enforcement or the better economy of the late 1990s. But the author claims it was due to Roe v Wade in 1972. Those babies from that time would be hitting their crime peak about now - and the women who seek abortions are more likely to come from an environemt that would tend to produce criminals.

Great analysis IMO.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

My stance is that abortion is wrong on the premise that killing a human is wrong, but I find some comfort in the fact that the entire institution is and will remain atheist liberals killing off atheist liberals.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My stance is that abortion is wrong on the premise that killing a human is wrong, but I find some comfort in the fact that the entire institution is and will remain atheist liberals killing off atheist liberals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...

A glass-half-full kind of guy...

-Gryph

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow...

A glass-half-full kind of guy...

[/ QUOTE ]

nh...

I was going to say something along the lines of "tell us what you really think".


But seriously, that position sounds a little contradictory - "I'm against abortion because it's the killing of a human" (okay, sounds good so far) / "except I don't mind abortion so much, depending on who's being aborted" (this part seems to contradict the former).

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Abortion allowed poor women the choice to have fewer kids later in their life and therefore provide better for those kids. I am not surprised that those kids were less likely to be criminals.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

When does life begin? answer this with evidence, not opinion. If you cannot, we may be killing up to 1.5 million humans a year. If they are not alive, then nothing bad has happened.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Why don't we just execute petty criminals as well. I mean, they are more likely to commit more serious crimes than someone who has not been convicted of a crime.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When does life begin? answer this with evidence, not opinion. If you cannot, we may be killing up to 1.5 million humans a year. If they are not alive, then nothing bad has happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always felt like this question does not matter. Why is it you don't want me to kill you? Is it because you are alive now and would not want to have to be painfully killed? Or is it because you would not want to miss out on the opportunities of the rest of your life? I'd think the later because the pain of death is nothing compared to the joy of life. Bringing up a child is a great and benevolent act, but the choice not to do this is only marginaly different from the choice to have an abortion in my opinion.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

I haven't read the book yet, but each time I hear this I remember my stats teachers repeating "correlation is not causation". So, are there statistics to back this up? Example, previously high crime areas that coincided with high abortion rates in the years discussed, followed by lower crime rates today? Or is just the idea talked about? It is interesting at how quickly this thread devolved from topic discussion to the morality issue of abortion (which I'm sure there is a thread for if people want further debate).

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Round 2, Dvault1? Just kidding. I don't think that topic could be discussed any more than it was.

[ QUOTE ]
Abortion allowed poor women the choice to have fewer kids later in their life and therefore provide better for those kids.

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean, before abortion came around, women had no choice in having kids later in life? I know that's probably not what you meant, but I don't suppose that just not [censored] when they can't afford it may better alternative, wouldn't it? Unless your argument is that we should be able to do whatever we want and not have any consequences...

To the OP, if stopping crime is the goal, then why not sterilze all those who might be at risk of having offspring that will commit crimes? Nip it in the bud!

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

first off, you would have to write a full book tying abortion to crime rates, and even then I doubt it'd be solid - way too much has happened in the last few years to say it's abortion.

for example, we've made great progress in Civil Rights since then - perhaps the progress has elevated some people to a law-abiding status that would prevent them from committing the crimes they would have otherwise...

Second, I'd say if our goal is to reduce crime, then kill every criminal and every child born to one or to poor circumstances....otherwise I'd say any relationship between the two is moot, because I don't believe steps for reducing crime should include killing people who haven't even committed the supposed crime they're going to grow up and commit.

either way I look at it, it's either a bullshit statistic or an unfortunate shitty side effect, not a benefit of abortion....

personally, I'm going with bullshit statistics.

RB

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Round 2, Dvault1? Just kidding. I don't think that topic could be discussed any more than it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've instructed my manager to throw in the towel before the bell rings for Round 2, so I won't be stepping back into the ring. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Abortion = less democrats?
 

"The author talked about the decline of the power of democrats in congress since 1994. A lot of people attribute it to the GOP's "Contract with America" or the better economy of the late 1990s. But the author claims it was due to Roe v Wade in 1972. Those babies from that time would be hitting their peak democratness about now - and the women who seek abortions are more likely to come from an environemt that would tend to produce democrats."

Now it all makes sense why the democrats gave Roberts a pass. They want him to overturn Roe V. Wade so in 20 years or so they can get control of Congress again.

Stu

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
first off, you would have to write a full book tying abortion to crime rates, and even then I doubt it'd be solid - way too much has happened in the last few years to say it's abortion.

for example, we've made great progress in Civil Rights since then - perhaps the progress has elevated some people to a law-abiding status that would prevent them from committing the crimes they would have otherwise...

Second, I'd say if our goal is to reduce crime, then kill every criminal and every child born to one or to poor circumstances....otherwise I'd say any relationship between the two is moot, because I don't believe steps for reducing crime should include killing people who haven't even committed the supposed crime they're going to grow up and commit.

either way I look at it, it's either a bullshit statistic or an unfortunate shitty side effect, not a benefit of abortion....

personally, I'm going with bullshit statistics.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course none of these tools would EVER say that the decrease in crime is a result of successful social programs, because of course social programs NEVER work. they always do NOT work, and idiots always believe in absolutes.

You are wrong, and you are an animal
 

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My stance is that abortion is wrong on the premise that killing a human is wrong, but I find some comfort in the fact that the entire institution is and will remain atheist liberals killing off atheist liberals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be Careful...........
 

My stance is that abortion is wrong on the premise that killing a human is wrong, but I find some comfort in the fact that the entire institution is and will remain atheist liberals killing off atheist liberals.
**************************************************
Some atheists, like me, are conservative, voted for Bush, and want him to appoint conservative judges to the supreme court.

On the surface the author's premise may have some validity. Certain segments of the USA population are more prown to crime and if this group is having a large percentage of abortions then it seems logical crime would be reduced.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read the book yet, but each time I hear this I remember my stats teachers repeating "correlation is not causation". So, are there statistics to back this up? Example, previously high crime areas that coincided with high abortion rates in the years discussed, followed by lower crime rates today? Or is just the idea talked about? It is interesting at how quickly this thread devolved from topic discussion to the morality issue of abortion (which I'm sure there is a thread for if people want further debate).

[/ QUOTE ]

Their analysis was fairly robust. They isolated a lot of other variables to reduce the possibility of hidden variables. They will never be able to prove their claim in the 2+2=4 sense, but their evidence is pretty strong.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Most of the people commenting on this haven't even read the book. I have and the evidence is very good. It's also important to note that, we have killed more people from abortion that we have saved from the decreased crime rates.

It's also important to note that I dont agree with everything in that book either, but the thing i like about the book is that it makes you think about things you haven't really thought about, it's a very good read. It's a book where even if you dont agree with you can still read.

Let\'s take it back 100 years...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just reading Freakonomics and I find it very interesting. The author talked about the decline in crime since 1995. A lot of people attribute it to better police enforcement or the better economy of the late 1990s. But the author claims it was due to Roe v Wade in 1972. Those babies from that time would be hitting their crime peak about now - and the women who seek abortions are more likely to come from an environemt that would tend to produce criminals.

Great analysis IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sh!t why stop there? Let's just kill off all the poor people. Make this a country full of white landowners and whatever poor people we don't kill we make work on our land...


ugh

Re: Let\'s take it back 100 years...
 

You are either poor, black, and uneducated, at which point I feel sympathy for your situation and say that I can't and never will really understand what you go through in life

Or

You just started your freshman year of college and you've already worn the cover off of every Michael Moore book that your roomate lent you. At which point I feel sympathy for your situation and say that I can't and never will really understand what you go through in life

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When does life begin? answer this with evidence, not opinion. If you cannot, we may be killing up to 1.5 million humans a year. If they are not alive, then nothing bad has happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always felt like this question does not matter. Why is it you don't want me to kill you? Is it because you are alive now and would not want to have to be painfully killed? Or is it because you would not want to miss out on the opportunities of the rest of your life? I'd think the later because the pain of death is nothing compared to the joy of life. Bringing up a child is a great and benevolent act, but the choice not to do this is only marginaly different from the choice to have an abortion in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just answer the question. When does life begin. No sidestepping. If you cant give the evidence of a correct anwer, then tell me its possible we are killing up to 1.5 million humans a year legally.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Just answer the question. When does life begin. No sidestepping. If you cant give the evidence of a correct anwer, then tell me its possible we are killing up to 1.5 million humans a year legally.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many unwanted children have you adopted? I would have a lot more respect for the anti-abortion crowd if they offered to adopt all these unwanted children. Instead, all I see is a bunch of "get-me-on-TV" picketing and a lot of threats and fulfilled threats to kill doctors who perform abortions.

I find members of anti-abortion interest groups to be among the most hypocritical people on Earth.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Just answer the question. When does life begin. No sidestepping. If you cant give the evidence of a correct anwer, then tell me its possible we are killing up to 1.5 million humans a year legally.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many unwanted children have you adopted? I would have a lot more respect for the anti-abortion crowd if they offered to adopt all these unwanted children. Instead, all I see is a bunch of "get-me-on-TV" picketing and a lot of threats and fulfilled threats to kill doctors who perform abortions.

I find members of anti-abortion interest groups to be among the most hypocritical people on Earth.

[/ QUOTE ]


As an 18 year old, i cannot adopt children yet. If I do not have any of my own later in life, I see no problem with adoption, and I think more people should do so. As is, people REFUSE to answer my question. When does life begin? Link to evidence please!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

edit: i also find a lot of prolifers to be hyporcites in that they support the death penaly, which is without a doubt murder, so ill concede a bit on that point.

Don\'t shrimp from it
 

[ QUOTE ]
Certain segments of the USA population are more prown to crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you meant to write prawn.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Atheist liberals are smart enough not to drink the KoolAid of religious dogma. The less people who have their lives dictated by the teachings of Jesus or Santa or the Easter Bunny the better off we are.

The phenomenom of abortion is similar to that of birth rates...the poor tend to have more kids than the wealthy. And, unfortunately, it seems the religious probably have less abortions per capita than the atheists.

It's kind of like anti-natural selection. Or proof of Unintelligent Design.

[ QUOTE ]
My stance is that abortion is wrong on the premise that killing a human is wrong, but I find some comfort in the fact that the entire institution is and will remain atheist liberals killing off atheist liberals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Your statement is very apt. It does depend on who's being aborted. Otherwise, why would so many people who think they believe abortion is murder be in favor of allowing it in the cases of rape or incest? To them it should be the same as passing a law allowing me to murder anyone whose father was a rapist or molester.

Of course most don't realize the contradiction because, like their religion, they have accepted the values dictated to them with an amazingly uncritical eye.

[ QUOTE ]


nh...

I was going to say something along the lines of "tell us what you really think".


But seriously, that position sounds a little contradictory - "I'm against abortion because it's the killing of a human" (okay, sounds good so far) /"except I don't mind abortion so much, depending on who's being aborted" (this part seems to contradict the former).

[/ QUOTE ]

freakonomics
 

the book basically just looks at stats to come up with different answers. it is not political in anyway. basically it also trys to get people to think rationally about problems. for example car accidents are way more of a problem than terrorism or stuff the media hypes. basically that is what alot of econ professors do. try to come up with explanations for things different than common perception.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

They forgot to abort republicans. Wouldn't this be less crime as well?

Tom Delay, Carl Rove, The Enron People, Bill Frist, ect...

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Does he include reliable statistics giving abortion rates pre Roe? I've heard it argued that Roe did very little to actually change abortion rates as that was the way the numbers were trending anyway and you didn't see a major shift in that trend following Roe.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

"Bringing up a child is a great and benevolent act"

For most its a biological urge.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Egocide, you keep saying that we should admit that 1.5 million people may be being killed via abortions because life may start at conception. The official doctrine of the Catholic church is that contraception is wrong because you are cutting off a potential life. So I assume that you are going to concede that we may be killing off many more millions than that and that all contraception should be banned. And why should we stop at the Catholic church's line? Why not call it a killing anytime a wife tells her husband that she doesn't want to tonight because she has a headache? That could've become a life, right?

Call me crazy, but since it's impossible to all agree on what the line is, how about letting the person who is the owner of their own body decide.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

This should be easy to prove. Look at the number of poor/black males in say 1985 compared to 1995. Less poor/black = less crime.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just answer the question. When does life begin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that the sperm and egg are dead and only come to life when combined?

The cancer that is killed by chemo is life. The fat sucked out of your body using lipo is life. The snots you pick out of your nose is life.

When you jerk off into a napkin, you are killing life. Every sperm is sacred, you know...

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just reading Freakonomics and I find it very interesting. The author talked about the decline in crime since 1995. A lot of people attribute it to better police enforcement or the better economy of the late 1990s. But the author claims it was due to Roe v Wade in 1972. Those babies from that time would be hitting their crime peak about now - and the women who seek abortions are more likely to come from an environemt that would tend to produce criminals.

Great analysis IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they control for other causes of lower birth rates? There has been a decrease in birth rates, but I don't know much of that is due to abortion and how much is due to societal changes (more working women, beter birth control, etc.)

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every sperm is sacred, you know...

[/ QUOTE ]

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

-Gryph

Had to do it...

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:


Just answer the question. When does life begin.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dude. You're 18 years old. Get some play under your belt and come back here later with the wisdom that some questions don't have answers.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

Basically what everyone has said is that we don't know where the line is. So the suggestion they make is that we err on the side of what could be murder.


[ QUOTE ]
Why not call it a killing anytime a wife tells her husband that she doesn't want to tonight because she has a headache? That could've become a life, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, dont split hairs with me.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The cancer that is killed by chemo is life

[/ QUOTE ]

Cancer is not life, it is a term for uncontrolled cell division.

And I think you really missed the point, that Egocide is specifically referring to a human being. When does a human become a human? When the sperm meets the egg? Or when it takes its first gasp of air? Or where in between? His implication is that when sperm meets egg, it starts becoming a human being, and therefore, is a human being, and that by killing it, you are killing a human being, which is wrong.

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not call it a killing anytime a wife tells her husband that she doesn't want to tonight because she has a headache? That could've become a life, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding Catholics.

Its actually a sin for a wife to refuse to have sex with her husband and vice versa. There are exceptions of course for things like illness, menstration, extreme exhuastion, etc, but in general if your partner wants you to put out and you reasonably can, you have an obligation to do so.

Stu

Re: Abortion = less crime?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many unwanted children have you adopted? I would have a lot more respect for the anti-abortion crowd if they offered to adopt all these unwanted children. Instead, all I see is a bunch of "get-me-on-TV" picketing and a lot of threats and fulfilled threats to kill doctors who perform abortions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't people in this country travel to places like Romania and South East Asia to find children they can adopt? Your point might have some validity if there weren't 20 couples willing to adopt for every available infant(National Committee for Adoption).

Stu