Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

Standard?

7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (1.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

5th Street - (3.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (6.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises

River - (15.90 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (18.90 BB)

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

Love the raise on 4th, I'm PUKING because of your 5th st play though, RAISE!!!

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

[ QUOTE ]
Love the raise on 4th, I'm PUKING your 5th play though, RAISE!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Give it a second look.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

I don't know what I'm looking at. (no results)

I assume you won, but 'flush boy' will still pay your raise on 5th.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

given 2 dead 4's and 1 dead Q by 5th, I think you have to raise 5th, there is too good a chance that the flush draw will cold call 2, or that he has some other hand that will cold call 2 or wouldn;t call 1, and you might win a 3rd bet by someone betting queens up. Only 1 combination has you beat, unless you really think that the first player won;t cold call this is a big mistake.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

Please explain. I am not thinking just about the fifth street action when I do not raise there.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain. I am not thinking just about the fifth street action when I do not raise there.

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What were you thinking about then? I say raise 5th.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

I see what you are doing on fifth and I think I like it for the deception value. When the fours are paired and you back down, seat one who is very likely on a flush draw figures his flush has to be good on sixth. You also want him in the hand and drawing for that flush.

If you raise fifth and he figures you for a boat, he likely folds. You may have also driven out seat five who makes a bad decision and hangs around to the end as things turn out.

So all in all, maybe you get one or two more big bets on fifth by raising, but you could also end up with nothing more. As things turn out and the flush hits, you end up collecting 8 big bets from your victims on sixth and seventh.

If seat 5's hand hand not been so dead, I would agree entitrely with raising fifth. So I think this was a pretty slick play that worked out perfectly for you.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

You would raise 5th with two pair right or trips right?

Then why the heck not with a boat. The flush draw is comming along for two bets and you will still likely get paid off on 6th. I think you cost yourself a bet from seat 1 and a bet from seat 5 in this hand by not raising.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

Played extremely well. My only quibble is with 3rd street. I would complete here if I decided to play. Your call on 5th is perfect b/c you don't mind the likely 4-flush to continue drawing dead and it could confuse him abotu your holding if you hit, which it clearly did. Nice play all around.

Jeff

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

[ QUOTE ]
Played extremely well. My only quibble is with 3rd street.


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I wasn't sure how to play 3rd street either. If the King had not been behind me, I would definitely complete, but the problem is that he is the type of player that will often (incorrectly) just call with split Kings, and of course also call with many other hands (e.g., 3-flush, 3-straight, 1-gappers, low pairs). Thus when I complete on 3rd and he cold calls, I am taking control of the hand without really having much control with just jacks. In this spot I've been frequently limping in and seeing how the hand develops.

But I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

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You would raise 5th with two pair right or trips right?

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Trips, definitely. Two pair I might fold, depending on my read of the player with the (xx)Q44; he's representing a hand that beats Jacks up, and there's really no reason not to believe him. Actually, if I didn't catch on fifth and he caught the open pair and bet I'd almost surely fold, given the fourth street action.

Thus calling is essentially telling everyone I have jacks up but don't want to fold.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

I would guess that the majority of 10/20 players are probably solid enough to throw the flush draw for two big bets on 5th. At 2/4 or 3/6 I think the raise is better, because he'll probably call and then raise 6th when he makes his flush, giving you two or three more bets. I think that at 10/20 you probably took the best line unless you knew that the player with the flush draw (and preferably the third player) are maniacs or donks.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

Well the queen who limped probably doesn't have queens. So you only have to beat the king whose hand you don't have info on yet. I prefer raising since you are likely best and the hand will play easier later. Also, though the King may be held by an idiot there are many hands he won't play for 10 that he would for 3, it's just common sense. So his coldcalling (or 3 betting) your hand would narrow his holdings a bit even though I get the gist of what you're saying.

That said, I follow your logic and you're a thinking player who has his reasons so I won't fault you (and it really isn't terrible, I just don't think it's optimal). I'd much rather limp if the Queen and King called ahead of me (along with another player) so I'd have position to see how it develops. In your case, I say raise now unless the queen is held by a player who likes to limp with big holdings (in which case you can fold) - but this is rare.

Jeff

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

Even a player who doesn't limp with big holdings might be timid enough to just limp with split Queens even with only one overcard left, although this isn't all too common. But I do have position, since if the King calls he will likely be high on fourth and if no one calls in between me and the King I would be last to act (unless of course someone pairs or catches an Ace).

However, moving on to fourth street, once the King checks an the Queen bets I think his most likely hand is the Queens. And after I raise fourth, if I were to raise fifth after he catches an open pair, it is dumb to think that I have Jacks up. I either have two full, trip twos, or Aces up, almost always. Given the third street action, I probably have one of the first two of those hands.

So, raising on fifth, while the spade draw probably will call, the Queen could very well dump his hand. I would guess that he'd probably call the raise on fifth but almost surely fold on sixth. Moreover, while the spade draw probably won't fold a flush, I do not think he would raise with the flush fearing the boat. Thus although I might lose 2 bets on fifth by not raising, I probably gained at least 4 bets on later streets, and thats being generous to those in the "raise fifth" campaign.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

The MAJORITY of 10/20 players would definitely not fold a flush draw on 5th here.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

I think you are probably overestimating the action you lose by raising 5th. I think a flush will still put in at least one raise when they hit.

That said, I think you played great, and agree with not raising 5th for the other reasons given. The key, for me at least, is that you will almost certainly be able to make up the action later (unless you catch one of your 3 improving cards).

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

I think if you call two cold with a flush draw, and hit it on the next card without your opponents improving, then raising is mandatory. If you don't think the flush is good, then you certainly shouldn't call two cold on fifth with a draw.

Given that the player with the queen up stood a raise on fourth and then bet out fifth when hero improves, I think he does have the queens. The action on sixth and seventh indicates either queens up or three fours. I think then that there is a decent chance that the flush draw will fold for two big bets. I like the call here

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you call two cold with a flush draw, and hit it on the next card without your opponents improving, then raising is mandatory. If you don't think the flush is good, then you certainly shouldn't call two cold on fifth with a draw.

Given that the player with the queen up stood a raise on fourth and then bet out fifth when hero improves, I think he does have the queens. The action on sixth and seventh indicates either queens up or three fours. I think then that there is a decent chance that the flush draw will fold for two big bets. I like the call here

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I'd just like to note that the fours are dead; the flush draw player has a four and so did the bring-in.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

...which is another reason that 4 flush is not going to be that scared if he makes a flush.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you call two cold with a flush draw, and hit it on the next card without your opponents improving, then raising is mandatory. If you don't think the flush is good, then you certainly shouldn't call two cold on fifth with a draw.

Given that the player with the queen up stood a raise on fourth and then bet out fifth when hero improves, I think he does have the queens. The action on sixth and seventh indicates either queens up or three fours. I think then that there is a decent chance that the flush draw will fold for two big bets. I like the call here

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I'd just like to note that the fours are dead; the flush draw player has a four and so did the bring-in.

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You're right. Sorry. In that case, I'm pretty confident that he has a queen in the hole - just possible a higher pair as well. Not many will stand the fourth street raise with nothing, and then bet into a raiser who has improved with only a pair of dead fours. If the flush player realises this, and you then raise again having improved, then he should be thinking that you may have the boat. I wouldn't call in that spot with the draw, and I don't think I'd be a winning 10/20 player.

Re: Semi-slowplay with underfull
 

I see what you're saying, and it's good reasoning. The problem is that it involves all 3 players giving the other 2 players credit, in some sense. Guy with flush draw has to be sure that Hero is sure that the third guy has 2 pair, meaning a raise represents better than queens up. And even then hero could have AA or KK down (though it's unlikely given the earlier action, it IS another place to be uncertain). So for that reasoning to change Hero's action, Hero has to feel strongly enough that flush draw guy would make the complicated read and not botch anything. In average games, this doesn't happen.

Regardless, I think we agree that Hero calling on 5th is the right play.