Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

I hate to call these 'leaks', because I think that word is over-used. But sometimes I'm playing and I do something I know I shouldn't, and I cringe right when I do it.

So, just to see if I'm alone, or maybe to get some community support, I'm going to post it. Feel free to flame me, add your own foibles, whatever.

If this is too NC, Greg, let me know.

Misplaced aggression... taking stabs at pots when I really shouldn't.

For instance:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>....

Why I Don't Like This:

It is a VERY draw-heavy flop, and I have bottom pair. I'm not getting out anyone with a bigger pair, or a piece of one of the ends of this. PLUS the pot is microscopic.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Hey KO,

Misplaced aggression can definitely be a ... weakness.

I'm wondering if a hand like this should even be played pre-flop. I think long-term this is -EV. We need more limpers in to make completing here worthwhile IMO.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Yeah not too good. Anyone else folding this preflop with only one limnper?

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey KO,

Misplaced aggression can definitely be a ... weakness.

I'm wondering if a hand like this should even be played pre-flop. I think long-term this is -EV. We need more limpers in to make completing here worthwhile IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

true true... I have been folding suited non-connecting small blinds with only a couple limpers. That was a slip of the brain. I should have folded it pf.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

I'm dropping this preflop. Pot way too small.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm dropping this preflop. Pot way too small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll complete this as long as BB is fairly passive PF. Then, I hover my mouse over the area where the fold button appears unless I flop something worth working with.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Btw... again, I knew this was a bad play.. well, I didn't notice the pre-flop so much as the bet on the turn. These are the kind of plays that I want to purge from my game, completely.

Perhaps I should have put a LC/NC on this thread.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm dropping this preflop. Pot way too small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll complete this as long as BB is fairly passive PF. Then, I hover my mouse over the area where the fold button appears unless I flop something worth working with.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean hearts? My problem is, even when I'm working, I seem to be paying the boss man when I complete with junk like this.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Fold preflop.

Flop bet is read dependent.

Turn bet is mandatory as far as i can see. Make the tighter one fold his OCs and the other one chase his straight with incorrect odds.

Sorry to disappoint, but I like this.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

I don't get it. What's wrong with your turn bet?

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

I like the turn bet more than I like the preflop complete.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why I Don't Like This:

It is a VERY draw-heavy flop, and I have bottom pair. I'm not getting out anyone with a bigger pair, or a piece of one of the ends of this. PLUS the pot is microscopic.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your self analysis of the hand is correct.

Awareness is the first step in changing behavior, so it looks like you're on the right track.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else folding this preflop with only one limnper?

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't think about there only being one limper before. Since virtually all your value comes from making a flush aside from the rare flop that hits you hard, with only one limper this looks like it's not even worth a complete.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Uhhh, your turn bet is absolutely correct. Do you really think it's wrong? If either player had a piece of this board they would've probably bet it on the flop. The fact that the pot is small is good for you. Your opponents make a large error if they call the turn bet with just overs/str8 draws. You have the best hand here a large % of the time. The turn bet is good.

Also, fold preflop.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Why is everyone saying fold pre-flop? SSHE says play any two suited from sb with no raise.

I seem to follow the pre-flop hand charts pretty strictly. Should I not do this? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I would have bet the turn as well.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone saying fold pre-flop? SSHE says play any two suited from sb with no raise.

I seem to follow the pre-flop hand charts pretty strictly. Should I not do this? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I would have bet the turn as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think becuase there's only one limper here. And this then makes the EV of this weak hand borderline.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

I understand that. What I am trying to figure out is when and how should I be deviating from the pre-flop hand charts? Not being an advanced player, I find myself using the hand charts exclusively. After reading this post, I am questioning this.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

The turn bet is fine. It would be very marginal if you had xx, but since you actually have something you'd be happy to show down, I don't know why you see this as a leak.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone saying fold pre-flop? SSHE says play any two suited from sb with no raise.

I seem to follow the pre-flop hand charts pretty strictly. Should I not do this? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I would have bet the turn as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tight charts assume 2-3 limpers, the loose charts 4-6, if I recall correctly (my book is on my desk at work).

So the charts don't really cover 1 limper.

If I had some high-card power it would be better, but then it would be a better raise, depending on the read I have on that player (which I forget at the moment). But since all I'm really counting on is either a miracle flop for my 47, or a suited flop for my hearts there aren't enough odds to call for that.

Chances for a 4-flush on flop are about 11% (and 35% chance of it hitting by turn, so 3.8%), chances for 2 pair abour 3, trips 1.5, so 8.3% chance of hitting a hand with this. So I should be getting 11-1.

2 limpers + blinds would make it 7-1, and implied odds could probably make up the rest. That is, hitting my hand and getting 1 player calling down.

But with 1 limper + blinds I'm only getting 5-1 on my complete. That means I would have to make up 3BB without getting out-drawn.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

Alright KO .... now that my brain is hurting from all that... I think i've got a lot of learning to do! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I guess what you're saying is that in the sb, only one limper, I should tighten up my play with any 2 suited. Basically, if they're not connected, or have no high card value, I should really consider folding.

I know there is no definite answer, but just trying to understand this.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
The turn bet is fine. It would be very marginal if you had xx, but since you actually have something you'd be happy to show down, I don't know why you see this as a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was the coordinated board, honestly. If it were 47Q rainbow, and I had the 7 and it checked through the first round I could see betting, because it has a better chance of taking the pot right there.

But on the turn I'm not folding anyone drawing. And unless the people in the pot are aggressive an 8 or 9 probably isn't betting. So I can't take the flop check-through as 'nobody hit'. It means 'nobody aggressive hit'.

The turn is 1BB to win 1.5BB, so I have to be good 33% of the time. Because the board is higher than middle range (789), the chances of someone having one of those cards is higher than if it had been something like 456. And the chances that it made 4 to a straight for a normal limping hand (like AT, KT) increases, too.

Maybe that's where my thinking diverges from everyone else in the thread. My idea of the bet wasn't 'hey, I think my hand is best' it was made with the intent of taking the pot right there. And the chances of that are slim, due to the nature of the board. So it was ill-advised for that reason.

The flop check-through wasn't enough to convince me that I had the best hand, either. A passive 8 or 9, or a slow-playing top pair (I'm pretty tired of KK being limped, me spiking a Q on the flop and losing 2-3BB). This may sound like MUBS, but lately the monsters have been very prevalent, and slowplaying top-pairs and monster flops is the new black.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright KO .... now that my brain is hurting from all that... I think i've got a lot of learning to do! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I guess what you're saying is that in the sb, only one limper, I should tighten up my play with any 2 suited. Basically, if they're not connected, or have no high card value, I should really consider folding.

I know there is no definite answer, but just trying to understand this.

[/ QUOTE ]

The %'s in that are accurate, I don't know how accurate my usage of them were... but remember you never want to put money in the pot without the chance at getting more back (pot odds). Pot odds are generally ignored pre-flop but in some conditions they need to be taken into account (like cold-calling PP's, for instance).

Well, tighten up away from the playing any two suited cards standards, anyway.

If the limper is loose I usually raise to isolate with normal limping hands like A9o. I'll raise with a suited A, too, like A7s, any 2 paints (QJo), K8+suited, etc.

If the limper is tight I'll limp with those instead of raise.

But you need to do more than just follow someone else's list of starting hands. You need to know the why's and what's good to limp with.

With a tight limper you have to worry about being dominated... you have K7s, and a K lands on the rainbow flop... you bet, he raises, what do you do?

With a loose limper you want to have high-card strength and decent kicker, since he may be limping with A5o. You want to be the one dominating. If you think you have a good chance at that, raise it.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chances for a 4-flush on flop are about 11% (and 35% chance of it hitting by turn, so 3.8%), chances for 2 pair abour 3, trips 1.5, so 8.3% chance of hitting a hand with this. So I should be getting 11-1.

2 limpers + blinds would make it 7-1, and implied odds could probably make up the rest. That is, hitting my hand and getting 1 player calling down.

But with 1 limper + blinds I'm only getting 5-1 on my complete. That means I would have to make up 3BB without getting out-drawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the real problem with completing with this kind of hand (74s) when there is only one limper is that you might have to fold on the flop even if you have a four-flush.

If you have a four-flush on the flop, one guy bets and the other folds you're getting 4:1 which is worse than your immediate odds of drawing another heart (4.22:1). Even if you could call then, on the turn you'd be getting 3.5:1 so you'd have to fold unless you had another piece of the flop.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a four-flush on the flop, one guy bets and the other folds you're getting 4:1 which is worse than your immediate odds of drawing another heart (4.22:1). Even if you could call then, on the turn you'd be getting 3.5:1 so you'd have to fold unless you had another piece of the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never fold a flush draw only geting 4:1 instead of getting 4.22:1. Same with the turn.

Implied odds more than make up a .22 difference.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

You're right, I've never thought about odds pre-flop. Thanks for the help.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
But on the turn I'm not folding anyone drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. But so what? You're ahead of any draw, which makes your bet a good value bet against those hands.

Edit: Also, an opponent on a draw is only getting 2.5:1 on a call. Depending on exactly how many outs he has, he may very well be making a mistake to call. You're definitely making a mistake if you let him draw for free.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But on the turn I'm not folding anyone drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. But so what? You're ahead of any draw, which makes your bet a good value bet against those hands.

Edit: Also, an opponent on a draw is only getting 2.5:1 on a call. Depending on exactly how many outs he has, he may very well be making a mistake to call. You're definitely making a mistake if you let him draw for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the check-through wasn't enough to tell me I'm ahead. I can see a passive 8 or 9 checking through.

It seems at 1/2, and even much more so lately, when I make a stab at things like this I get creamed by a big pair, or the flopped straight that didn't bet.

So I'm not putting as much stock in checked-through flops as I used to...

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

I'll play this preflop when I want to test myself, it probably has a small -EV in a vacumn though.

flop you can bet or not, depending, but the turn bet is a must.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

There's something in psychology called the "availability heuristic." What it means is that people tend to over-estimate the occurance of memorable events while downplaying the occurance of routine, non-memorable events.

I think you may be running into this in these situations. When you bet the turn and lose to KK or a flopped straight, you think "wtf?!" and remember that event. On the other hand, when you pick up the pot you never give this hand a second thought and you've completely forgotten about an orbit later.

I think you pick this up uncontested far, far more often than you run into a trickily played overpair, a slowplayed straight, or a misplayed top pair. It's just that you remember the later cases and forget about the former.

Seriously, you can make a good case for betting this turn with literally any two cards. I've seen that advice show up in multiple books (I'm thinking Yao and Freeny, but there may have been others as well. Harmon's chapter in SS2 is another possibility, but I would need to review that one). If it would be reasonable to bet this turn WITH NOTHING AT ALL, then it has to be right to bet the turn with a legitimate hand that figures to be good at the moment.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was the coordinated board, honestly. If it were 47Q rainbow, and I had the 7 and it checked through the first round I could see betting, because it has a better chance of taking the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it were 47Q rainbow I would bet the flop.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
But on the turn I'm not folding anyone drawing. And unless the people in the pot are aggressive an 8 or 9 probably isn't betting. So I can't take the flop check-through as 'nobody hit'. It means 'nobody aggressive hit'.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true, but there's a reasonable chance you DO have the best hand. If so, checking is a mistake because you are giving players who may have a lot of outs against it a free chance to outdraw you.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is 1BB to win 1.5BB, so I have to be good 33% of the time. Because the board is higher than middle range (789), the chances of someone having one of those cards is higher than if it had been something like 456. And the chances that it made 4 to a straight for a normal limping hand (like AT, KT) increases, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they have hands like that it's even more important to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe that's where my thinking diverges from everyone else in the thread. My idea of the bet wasn't 'hey, I think my hand is best' it was made with the intent of taking the pot right there. And the chances of that are slim, due to the nature of the board. So it was ill-advised for that reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be the reason to bet with 24o, but you don't mind callers as much.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems at 1/2, and even much more so lately, when I make a stab at things like this I get creamed by a big pair, or the flopped straight that didn't bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem, not the way you played this hand.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

With only 1 limper I dump weak suited gappers in the SB.

I also think the pot is too small to try taking it away on the turn. All you've lost so far is 1 SB, I don't see any reason to battle this pot away from anyone. Especially when you're against loose players. For all you know, someone else has a 7 with a better kicker, or an 8, or maybe a 9. With the pot at only 1.5BB, I'm fine with checking this through unless I improve.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's something in psychology called the "availability heuristic." What it means is that people tend to over-estimate the occurance of memorable events while downplaying the occurance of routine, non-memorable events.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I'm familiar with that affect. It's the main cause of comments like 'Party is rigged', etc. I know that the brain likes to play tricks on you, and I do take steps to try to counteract them before I rush to generalizations. I'm a pretty critical-thinking kind of guy.

I haven't gone back to prove myself with numbers, but I know that it doesn't happen just once or twice a night (and not always to me, I see others trapped by it, too). I always comment those players, but it always seems to be someone new doing it, although I have caught one guy with a previous note. It happened to me on two separate tables at the exact same time last night. Yeah, I know, that argues for your phenomena, since that makes it all the more memorable.

The style of play seems to be that they don't like to open-raise it, or 3-bet hands like AA, KK, AK, sometimes QQ.
They will raise it out of the blinds if they have enough limpers, or out of late position.

I've seen it frequent enough that I think there is a book or web-site somewhere advising it... or maybe they just watch TV poker too much.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you pick this up uncontested far, far more often than you run into a trickily played overpair, a slowplayed straight, or a misplayed top pair. It's just that you remember the later cases and forget about the former.

Seriously, you can make a good case for betting this turn with literally any two cards. I've seen that advice show up in multiple books (I'm thinking Yao and Freeny, but there may have been others as well. Harmon's chapter in SS2 is another possibility, but I would need to review that one). If it would be reasonable to bet this turn WITH NOTHING AT ALL, then it has to be right to bet the turn with a legitimate hand that figures to be good at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, at least I wasn't completely out in left field, except pre-flop, perhaps... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]

But with 1 limper + blinds I'm only getting 5-1 on my complete. That means I would have to make up 3BB without getting out-drawn.
KO

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment made me think about the implied odds thread in the latest digest (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...amp;PHPSESSID=). Read Nick Royales posts.

Basically, what he wrote was that there is a difference between calling 5-1 and 10-2 when you calculate implied odds.

In this particular case it would translate into that there is a difference between calling PF 2.5-0.5, which is what we really do here, and calling 5-1, which is what KingOtter used in his calculations.

If KO is right here and we need 11-1, we would not really need to be able to get another 3 BB, but just 3 SB. Since we want to get 11-1, and we pay only 0.5, we really need 5.5-0.5, and since we are currently getting 2.5-0.5, we only need 3 SB more.

In the example of 2 limpers, where we get 7-1, or more correctly, 3.5-0.5, it would then mean that we need no more than 2 SB.

Royale opened my eyes for this just this day, so my reasoning could be completely wrong, but I don't think so.

(didn't read all posts, just scanned them, so sorry if Im repeating someone else)

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

otter

you should not worry about this being a leak because i doubt you run into this leak very often. since i dont think it is a terrible leak i dont think this hand was played terribly. so stop worrying about this leak and go back to building some dams that dont have terrible leaks in them with your otter clan.

(i check/fold the turn)

A similar hand that I don\'t like - family pot, though
 

Thanks for posting this. I was just preparing a similar holding for the board and feeling kind of stupid about it. It turns out that it's probably not as bad as I feared.

Comments welcome on all streets.

---

The players:

UTG 50 VPIP, 0 PFR, Agg 5 (&lt; 50 hands)
UTG+1 44 VPIP, 0 PFR, Agg 0 (&lt; 50 hands)
MP2 58 VPIP, 0 PFR, Agg .22 (&lt; 50 hands)
MP3 62 VPIP, 1.2 PFR, Agg .07 (&gt;100 hands)
CO 65 VPIP, 0 PFR, Agg .74 (&gt;100 hands)
But 55 VPIP, 0 PFR, Agg .68 (50-100 hands)
BB no read (tight or no cards?), 10 hands with VPIP of 0

Great table (can any decision be wrong here?), family pot

HERO is in the SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9-handed)

PRE-FLOP
UTG SLAG calls, UTG+1 SLP calls, 1 fold, MP2 SLP calls, MP3 SLP calls, CO SLP calls, Button SLP calls, HERO calls, BB checks.
[8 sb]

Easy complete.


FLOP 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
HERO checks, BB checks, UTG SLAG bets, UTG+1 SLAG calls, MP2 SLP raises, MP3 SLP folds, CO SLP folds, Button SLP folds, HERO calls, BB folds, UTG SLAG bets, UTG+1 SLAG calls, MP2 SLP calls, HERO calls.
[20 sb]

My thinking here was weak, I think. I had a piece and was very confident my 5 outs were good plus I had BDFD and BDSD. The pot seemed too big to let go being against Q + any broadway. Anybody bet this instead of checking? How about folding when it's two back to you? Calling the 3-bet closing the action seemed the easiest decision here.


TURN 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
HERO checks, UTG SLAG bets, UTG+1 SLAG calls, MP2 SLP calls, HERO calls.
[14 BB]

I think the call is standard. The 5 didn't help anyone and my BDSD improved. Anyone differ here?

RIVER 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
HERO checks, UTG SLAG checks, UTG+1 SLAG checks, MP2 SLP checks.
[Final Pot: 14 BB]

Whiffed on a check-raise. At the time, I felt the table was more aggressive than it looks in the light of day.

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
otter

you should not worry about this being a leak because i doubt you run into this leak very often. since i dont think it is a terrible leak i dont think this hand was played terribly. so stop worrying about this leak and go back to building some dams that dont have terrible leaks in them with your otter clan.

(i check/fold the turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I was careful to say it wasn't a leak. Just a behavior I wanted to change... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And actually I think this situation does come up frequently enough for me.

Basically what I'm seeing in my game right now is I win a big pot or two, and then my chips whittle down, down, down..... if I can save a SB or three every 100 hands, well, that translates directly into winrate, doesn't it? In this hand I should have saved half an SB pre-flop.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems at 1/2, and even much more so lately, when I make a stab at things like this I get creamed by a big pair, or the flopped straight that didn't bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem, not the way you played this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is me being a scared little girl?

I can buy into that.

KO

Re: Stuff I do that I don\'t like
 

You are correct sir... I mixed up all my translations back and forth between SB's, half SB's and BB's.

KO