thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

villian is 11/8/3.2

any reason to raise the flop and take control?
could i possibly be ahead on the river?

basically i just wanted to let him keep bluffing and didnt want to put any more money in if i was behind, but then by the river things were looking grim

Party Poker 3.00/6.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.67 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.67 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.67 BB.

ive been posting a lot of passively played hands recently, but dont worry, ill probly do some more crazy LAG [censored] soon enough

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I think you can fold on the turn safely. you were WA/WB on flop, but turn is very scary for someone betting with TT or worse.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I don't quite understand the call down here. Ok, we're worried about him having an ace or a pp higher than our JJ. But he might have a lower PP. I think you need to raise the turn for a free showdown or just fold there. He might very well fold a queen by putting you on a flush or a slowplayed ace. He probably won't, but it's a nice side effect when you're really just trying to get a bit of money out of 88-TT.

In summary, enough stuff beats us that I think we need to fold or find a raise to punish him when we're ahead. Feel free to flame me if I'm entirely off base here; I'm fairly inexperienced in this type of situation.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

Raise the flop.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

UTG isn't so likely to be betting KQ into you on the flop, so I don't think the turn card changes the situation as much as it appears to. Still, I think there are various things to take into account:

(1) While it wasn't particularly likely that UTG was betting a flush draw in the first place, the small number of remaining flush combos (K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] seem like the main ones we much to concern ourselves with, at this point) are now ahead of you.

(2) The fact that Villain is betting again on an additional broadway card is troublesome. However, that third club might've emboldened him, if he's just got, say, T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

(3) You are now drawing dead against AQ/QQ, and you've lost all folding equity versus QQ. But it's not like you were drawing well against either of those hands anyway, and I have some doubts about Villain both having and dumping QQ on the flop (or on a turn blank).

Anyway, I actually don't think the king changes a whole lot either, except that once again Villain bet despite the card that fell. I suspect you were behind a hand like AQ/AJ/AT to begin with.

I'm thinking that, in a way, it would make more sense to either fold the turn or call both the turn and the river. But Villain's willingness to fire again on the river shouldn't be disregarded, and, really, your play in the hand seems okay to me.

As for the flop, I guess raising is an option, but you're not going to learn much by raising. If you raise, I think mainly you're doing it in hopes of driving out KK-JJ and also to charge a flush draw that isn't so likely anyway and that you probably aren't much of a favorite over (K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in particular, is in fine shape against you, and it's the most likely flush draw, too).

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I prefer raising the flop and folding to a 3bet. If the raise is called I'd check the turn in an attempt to induce a bluff.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

since you've disagreed with everyone else so far, i think this deserves some explanation

sorry to point this post out, but i think this is the kind of post jason was talking about in his recent HUSH thread. at least it is for me.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
since you've disagreed with everyone else so far, i think this deserves some explanation

sorry to point this post out, but i think this is the kind of post jason was talking about in his recent HUSH thread. at least it is for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should read the OP's post first, then reply.

Its simple equity, really. This is either a continuation bet, in which case we need to punish it, or he's got the goods. Either way, if we call down, he's getting what he wants.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

he asked if there were reasons to raise the flop, you simply said "raise the flop". i dont see what the point was.

rj

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
he asked if there were reasons to raise the flop, you simply said "raise the flop". i dont see what the point was.

rj

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP refered to his 2 lines, and I gave him my opinion.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I have no clue what you're talking about. I was referring to the fact that just saying "raise the flop" is not at all helpful to the discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
This is either a continuation bet

[/ QUOTE ]

How is it a continuation bet when hero 3-bet preflop?

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, if we call down, he's getting what he wants.


[/ QUOTE ]

actually i think call down is the last thing he wants, if hes got an ace hes probably going for a bet/3-bet, if not he would probably want us to fold

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

In the post, the OP asked which is better, raising the flop or what he did, specifically. I gave him an answer. I suspected the OP already knew why he should be raising.

A lot of opponents don't cap preflop, ever. I see a lot of continuation betting, because most players hate checking here. I probably didn't get the lingo right, but you know what I mean. The villian felt obligated to make the bet, because checking sucks.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

What do you do if he calls your flop raise and checks the turn?

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. I think folding the flop is a lot better than raising.

Rob

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I also would raise the flop. SOme opponents can 3bet you with air so if I think he's one of those I might not sometimes. But this is way too often a pair worse than ours. He sees the AAx and thinks, heh, that's scary for him if he doesn't have an A, i might have the best hand, he might fold, I'll bet. Raise the flop.

If he calls you then bet sometimes. If he calls and donks the turn I would fold. I would bet all the time against an opponent who's checkrasie I would believe. If he calls the turn check through the river. I think you mostly bet the turn folding to a c/r and soemtimes check the turn calling a river bet.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I would fold this turn. Your behind pretty much all of the time on the turn, and when your not he probably has a good club redraw.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also would raise the flop. SOme opponents can 3bet you with air so if I think he's one of those I might not sometimes. But this is way too often a pair worse than ours. He sees the AAx and thinks, heh, that's scary for him if he doesn't have an A, i might have the best hand, he might fold, I'll bet. Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think raising the flop is going to get him to back down. He probably anticipates a 3bettable ace preflop to wait for the turn.

I think if i call the turn, i call the river. The turn is much scarier than the river, in the sense that it completed an overcard that you may have been vulnerable to and a flush.

The king is fairly harmless (in light of the queen) when you consider what he potentially has. KQ already had you beat. KJ is unlikely given you have two jacks. Do you think he raises K/10 preflop and leads here? K/9? If not, then the king rarely changes anything.

I fold the turn though without a read to suggest he's extremely aggressive. If he is, i just call the whole way.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

I like this post because it made me realize another reason to raise the flop - that small bet is the cheapest opportunity I have to get information from him. Looking at the way this hand played out, I have no clue what that guy had, and I feel forced to fold that river just like you did. After I raise the flop, I fold to any aggression, bet/fold the turn, and check through any river card.

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

calling the turn and folding the river is ugly here. What changes your hand between the turn and the river that makes you want to fold your hand? You really think he hit that k?? If you call the turn, call the river. Only thing you beat here is TT-99. A free/cheap showdown raise isn't such a bad idea on the flop, IMHO. You can bet/fold again on the turn with any non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling the turn and folding the river is ugly here. What changes your hand between the turn and the river that makes you want to fold your hand? You really think he hit that k?? If you call the turn, call the river. Only thing you beat here is TT-99. A free/cheap showdown raise isn't such a bad idea on the flop, IMHO. You can bet/fold again on the turn with any non [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, getting to the river and folding is not ideal. I doubt the K helped him, but every possible overcard to Hero's JJ is on the board and if he hit any Hero is behind. I'm really trying to focus on these exact situations as my game evolves and choose times to call down and when I can feel good about folding early on. Should there be a "point of no return" with the calldown play? As in this case, once you call the turn just call down no matter what hits on the river?

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

[ QUOTE ]
After I raise the flop, I fold to any aggression, bet/fold the turn, and check through any river card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is spot on

Re: thinkin WA/WB, but then it just kept gettin uglier
 

If its heads up and you have little chance of improvement, calling on the turn should almost always equal calling on the river. Often times you should include the cost of 2 BB in the pot odds of you having the best hand. One situation where you would call the turn/fold the river is if you could only beat a draw vs an aggro oppenent (i.e. flush draw, straight draw), you can often fold the river if the draw comes in.