Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

1. The universe is an illusion
For most of us this is simple so we'll move on.


2. The universe was self created or created by Chance
This term (self created) is analytically false. If something created itself from nothing, that would imply it was both something and nothing at the same time in the same relationship- nothing can create itself.It would have to be before it was.

A coin has a 50% chance of coming up heads when flipped. Chance is just that- a mathematical probability that something can happen. The pressure of my thumb when I flipped it, how I caught it etc. caused it to come up heads or tales. Chance has no power . Chance is not a thing . Chance exerts no force .


3. The universe is self existent and eternal.
Everything we know points away from this. Today this is pretty much a non-argument.

4. The universe was created by something that is infinite, and eternal
From my stance this makes the most sense.


I think these are the only 4 possibilities, as others would more than likely be a derivative of the above. I'm sure some will agree with me, but more will think I'm way off base here. I'd like to hear some of both.

Jeff

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

What about:

5. We don't know what happened yet, maybe someday we will, maybe it's beyond our ability to discover.

From my stance, this is the only thing that makes sense.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about:

5. We don't know what happened yet, maybe someday we will, maybe it's beyond our ability to discover.

From my stance, this is the only thing that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It's akin to when humanity still believed the Earth was the center of the universe when we didn't yet have the means to think otherwise.

Our understanding of the cosmos is still in such a primitive state it's quite ridiculous to make any definitive conclusions from the data.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

You missed one.

5. The reason for our universe’s existence is currently beyond our ability to comprehend. (Personaly I think this is the most likly explanation.)

Missing that one is typical human arrogance.

That’s all assuming the question makes sense of course.

Who or what created .....
 

<font color="red"> 4. The universe was created by something that is infinite, and eternal
</font>

Gee - I wonder what that 'something that is infinite, and eternal' could be.

Who or what created that 'something that is infinite, and eternal'?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]

3. The universe is self existent and eternal.
Everything we know points away from this. Today this is pretty much a non-argument.



[/ QUOTE ]

You are mistaken if you believe the Big Bang theory disproves this view of the universe. Conveniently, #3 is also the best argument against your theistic view.

Re: Who or what created .....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who or what created that 'something that is infinite, and eternal'?


[/ QUOTE ]

If something is infinite, and eternal it wasn't created.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

3. The universe is self existent and eternal.
Everything we know points away from this. Today this is pretty much a non-argument.



[/ QUOTE ]

You are mistaken if you believe the Big Bang theory disproves this view of the universe. Conveniently, #3 is also the best argument against your theistic view.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nuclear Fusion.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

About your number 3, the one you say is disproven

So far, the only thing that has been shown not to be eternal is the part of Universe which is available to our observation. There is a big jump from saying that whatever we can observe appears not to be eternal to your number 4 which is not at all supported by observation

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

I love it when someone makes one of these posts. I am now convinced that there must be a pro-God site somewhere showing people how to make this moronic arguement. It just shows up too often and is so stupid that I would lose my faith in humanity if I believed so many people came up with it independently. This argument is begging the question and totally worthless. Of course you miss the option that makes the most sense: In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd and was created when a finite and non eternal but higher dimesional chicken had to defecate. Any one that has tried to clean up bird crap will verify that something that is not eternal can create long lasting things. (I just couldn't work in a chicken overlord, but I tried).

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh one of those "unifying" theories. Yea they're entertaining.

BTW the pro-God website is www.moronicarguments.com.
Jeff

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course you miss the option that makes the most sense: In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd and was created when a finite and non eternal but higher dimesional chicken had to defecate. Any one that has tried to clean up bird crap will verify that something that is not eternal can create long lasting things.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree that the universe was created by an outside being? That was the point of the argument.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

I didn't say it was disproven. However through logical inference specialists in the field of cosmology seem to agree on it.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course you miss the option that makes the most sense: In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd and was created when a finite and non eternal but higher dimesional chicken had to defecate. Any one that has tried to clean up bird crap will verify that something that is not eternal can create long lasting things.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree that the universe was created by an outside being? That was the point of the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss my point. I believe that the universes creation is only interesting to us because it is our universe. I am simply suggesting that its creation is a perfectly mundane occurence. How about making it a rock slipping and falling in a higher dimensional space so that no other being is involved? My examply was also supposed to be a bit of a joke.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh one of those "unifying" theories. Yea they're entertaining.

BTW the pro-God website is www.moronicarguments.com.
Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very dissappointed that this link didn't connect to the source of these arguements. I was really hoping to find what was at the root of all this lunacy. I don't appreciate you getting my hopes up.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about making it a rock slipping and falling in a higher dimensional space so that no other being is involved?

[/ QUOTE ]
And the IDEA that there MAY BE an intelligent designer is too far out for people that think this way? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

:) Sorry NM
 

[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned: 5. The Universe was created by something finite, not eternal.

It's odd to me all the assumptions we make about a creator if there is one. A creator doesn't have to be all powerful, all knowing, eternal, pure good, pure evil, it only needs to be something existant beyond our universe.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
5. The Universe was created by something finite, not eternal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this how you feel. If so can you explain why?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

Yes, it really is. The universe is just too vast and our time in it has been much too short. Anything concrete regarding all the theories that currently abound could be centuries (if not millennia) away.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

Then why even discuss it? So I don't know how ,but I DO KNOW that it just could'nt have been created. That makes alot of sense.

The forgone conclusion that creation is a fairy tale but alternate dimensions, chickens dropping turds, smurfs-anyting but creation, says so much about our current state of affairs.

However I can definately understand it. It just seems so irrational.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5. The Universe was created by something finite, not eternal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this how you feel. If so can you explain why?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible. I don't believe this is any more reasonable than the other causes, but then again I don't think it is any less reasonable either. Your goal was to come up with a list of all possibilities, and certainly a finite creator should be included.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course you miss the option that makes the most sense: In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd and was created when a finite and non eternal but higher dimesional chicken had to defecate. Any one that has tried to clean up bird crap will verify that something that is not eternal can create long lasting things.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree that the universe was created by an outside being? That was the point of the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss my point. I believe that the universes creation is only interesting to us because it is our universe. I am simply suggesting that its creation is a perfectly mundane occurence. How about making it a rock slipping and falling in a higher dimensional space so that no other being is involved? My examply was also supposed to be a bit of a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, the point of the argument in the original post was that the universe was created. You ridiculed that argument here:
[ QUOTE ]
I love it when someone makes one of these posts. I am now convinced that there must be a pro-God site somewhere showing people how to make this moronic arguement. It just shows up too often and is so stupid that I would lose my faith in humanity if I believed so many people came up with it independently. This argument is begging the question and totally worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, it seems you agree here:
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the universes creation is only interesting to us because it is our universe. I am simply suggesting that its creation is a perfectly mundane occurence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line: The universe was created by some outside being. Agree?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

The scientists in cosmology can build their theories on the available observations. The sum of available observations suggests that that portion of the Universe which we are able to observe is not eternal.
However, no further inferences can be made, until our ability to make observations is improved. No evidence points to an infinite timeless Universe creator.
So, option 5 proposed by several people in this thread, namely that it is too early for definite conclusions, seems like the most rational choice at this time.
What makes you jump to your conclusion ahead of the evidence?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

Well, you brought it up...

Every one of the explanations has an equal amount of validity while we exist in a state of ignorance. As a species we've existed for less than a few thousandths of a percent of known time. We've got an incomplete snapshot of a snapshot of a snapshot of a blurry snapshot. It may be fun to conjecture, but we can't possibly KNOW anything.

I can never hope to master the math to even begin to comprehend the theories, but that doesn't lead me to accept a creator theory.

Maybe it's just me, but if irrefutable proof came that we are just a bunch of mice in a really big cage, I'd be sorely disappointed. I'm just as entitled to believe that as you are to your beliefs.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course you miss the option that makes the most sense: In a higher dimensional space, the universe is a chicken turd and was created when a finite and non eternal but higher dimesional chicken had to defecate. Any one that has tried to clean up bird crap will verify that something that is not eternal can create long lasting things.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree that the universe was created by an outside being? That was the point of the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, his point was that the poster, when defining all "possibilities" conveniently ignored some possibilities. Do you really fail to see that? You think the OP is really an "argument" for an outside creator? It is a collection of incomplete and unfounded assertions and nothing more.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about making it a rock slipping and falling in a higher dimensional space so that no other being is involved?

[/ QUOTE ]
And the IDEA that there MAY BE an intelligent designer is too far out for people that think this way? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

His point nis simply that the universe may have been created as a physical outcome of an event that occurred merely by chance in a larger multiverse. He isn't saying that this is certain, just possible. But just ignore this possibility in your "possibilities for our universe' existence" and continue to delude yourself into believing that you have logically "proven" the creator.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's just me, but if irrefutable proof came that we are just a bunch of mice in a really big cage, I'd be sorely disappointed. I'm just as entitled to believe that as you are to your beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we totally agree. I happen to believe in God, but in no way am I discounting your right to believe what you choose.

Just observing how easy "open-minded" people is to totally discount something then later stae well we don't have all the facts so I don't know.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

I didn't know I proved creation. I should spread the news. Don't I get a prize or something?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

Hi Jeff

Its hard to believe you've discussed this much (as I think you claim) and cannot recognise the problem people have with this type of justification of god.

You dismiss 2. and 3. and 5(something else) but are arguing against people who don't dismiss them but simply don't understand how they could be. The lack of understanding is nor resolved by the addition of something else they don't understand.

They are certainly not going to be persuaded that lack of understanding implies impossible (or irrational). So whats the point?

chez

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

I'm not trying to convert anyone.

Remeber that skit on SNL w/ Phil Hartman Caveman Lawyer? "I'm just a caveman, I don't understand your...". That would be so funny here. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I have dual purposes for this post. One obvious the other maybe not so obvious but nonetheless there.
Jeff

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about making it a rock slipping and falling in a higher dimensional space so that no other being is involved?

[/ QUOTE ]
And the IDEA that there MAY BE an intelligent designer is too far out for people that think this way? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

His point nis simply that the universe may have been created as a physical outcome of an event that occurred merely by chance in a larger multiverse. He isn't saying that this is certain, just possible. But just ignore this possibility in your "possibilities for our universe' existence" and continue to delude yourself into believing that you have logically "proven" the creator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your help. I am done with this thread.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to convert anyone.

I have dual purposes for this post. One obvious the other maybe not so obvious but nonetheless there.
Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe if you tell us the purpose we could help. If the purpose is made impossible by telling us what it is then I can have suspicions as to its nature but they're not very charitable.

[ QUOTE ]
Remeber that skit on SNL w/ Phil Hartman Caveman Lawyer? "I'm just a caveman, I don't understand your...". That would be so funny here. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, no idea.

chez

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

Jeff V, I'm just an atheist. Your Christian world frightens me. Is God going to smite me with frogs because i'm not doing his bidding, will he flood my house tommorow and tell me to build a boat? I don't know. But there's one thing I do know, and it's that a finite creator should have been #5 on your list. Thank you your honor.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

I never totally discounted it, I said it was just as likely as any other conjecturing at this point. The bible doesn't even claim that God created the universe.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
You think the OP is really an "argument" for an outside creator? It is a collection of incomplete and unfounded assertions and nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe created itself.

The universe has always existed.

The universe was created by an outside being.

(Or perhaps, as mentioned, the universe is an illusion.)

There are no other options. So what exactly is your point?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

Can we call him the "Suicide Big-Banger"?

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think the OP is really an "argument" for an outside creator? It is a collection of incomplete and unfounded assertions and nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe created itself.

The universe has always existed.

The universe was created by an outside being.

(Or perhaps, as mentioned, the universe is an illusion.)

There are no other options. So what exactly is your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those weren't the options he listed.

And, even so, there is another option:

The universe was created by an outside event [not a being].

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think the OP is really an "argument" for an outside creator? It is a collection of incomplete and unfounded assertions and nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe created itself.

The universe has always existed.

The universe was created by an outside being.

(Or perhaps, as mentioned, the universe is an illusion.)

There are no other options. So what exactly is your point?

[/ QUOTE ]6.)The big bang wasn't really an event, and the universe did not have a creation. For an explaination ask Hawkins.

7.) It makes no difference what created the universe or how the universe was created. As any infomation was wiped clean during creation.

Re: Four Possibilities For Our Universes\' Existence
 

The "Uni-Banger"!!!!