A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

Bellagio 80/160 full table. I destroyed dandruff at the 3 handed game (better than avg cards and good play) and I'm continuing to run/play well at the full table. He's running like horseshit and is down maybe 2.5 racks in an hour or 2 at this point. He's noticibly frustrated. The other villain is a 23ish year old kid who thinks he plays well. He has a very "inside the box" view of the game. He also limps a lot more than others. He open limped in the CO with KJo last orbit. His post-flop play is reasonable. A little more aggressive than most 80/160 players but not quite as much as the top players. I'm pretty sure at this point he thinks I'm solid.

Dandruff raises in the high-jack, young guy calls, I call with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button. bad player in bb calls.

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

bb checks, dandruff bets, kid calls, I call, bb folds.

Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Dandruf checks, kid bets, I raise (intending to put 0 more money in the pot) Thoughts?

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

flop call seems pretty light to me.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I don't like flop call personally. Have no clean outs and could easily be drawing to runners. Since you did see the turn, i like the raise

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I like it. I think the kids most likely hands are 66-99. You could be behind QJs or AJs, but I think you are good vs. his likely range and the raise makes sure Druff folds something like AQ.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

you're getting 8.5-1 on the flop overcalling. how does this amount to a call?

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I think too many things have to fall perfectly into place in order to make this flop call a profitable one.

Dan not having a K or nice pair (completely likely, so that's ok) PLUS the kid cold calling with the intention of making some sort of play on the turn with a hand he'll release (or that's worse than jacks or tens) PLUS you hit something nice on the turn like a backdoor draw.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think too many things have to fall perfectly into place in order to make this flop call a profitable one.

Dan not having a K or nice pair (completely likely, so that's ok) PLUS the kid cold calling with the intention of making some sort of play on the turn with a hand he'll release (or that's worse than jacks or tens) PLUS you hit something nice on the turn like a backdoor draw.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah, and even if neither of them ahve something good, they could still have AJ, KJ, QJ, AT, KT, QT

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I would fold pre-flop.
I would fold the flop.
I would not outplay me.

I would fold in the sea.
I would fold on the land.
I would not play this hand.

-f

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

Very good turn play but I too don't get the flop play unless you felt that Dandruff (because of his then mindset) would checkfold the turn if he did not yet have a pair.

Most guys at this level have good follow through on the turn particularly when the flop is benign. Nevertheless, I can't imagine that you called the flop with a view to raising Druff even if you missed.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

would dan bet QQ here on the turn? cuz if you got him to laydown QQ or TT that would be awesome.

preflop is fine, flop is meh, i love the turn.

this is also a hand where i would want dan to post his thoughts. seeing as he's really insecure, i'm sure he's already looked at this post

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

given the kid's tendancies, i would lean to raising preflop. other than that, I like the turn raise. I think flop play is debatable-- lots depend on reads. will the kid raise every time he has top pair?

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

that kid betting is like the kiss of death there. youre so likely against a K so you may as well just call or fold. one more reason to just call the turn is i wouldnt be surprised if dan wasnt setting up a checkraise that now turned into a check-3 bet. of course all of this was set up by the ultra floaty flop call which is also ruined by the kid calling the flop. i think you choked it on this one sorry.

one more thing about the flop
 

i think raising the flop is better than calling the flop. i still think folding is best, but a raise especially after the kid calls might be expert.

and i think given the presumed frustration level of dan at that point that 3 betting preflop might also be slightly better than calling.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

isn't this exactly the kind of preflop play david ross used to take a lot of crap for? or does the fact that he's raising from the hijack make that much of a difference?

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I think this preflop call is bad against 2 guys who play well postflop, but I might be wrong. I'm pretty certain the flop call is bad.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

i'm a bit tighter than most but i fold the preflop and on the flop. these are two spots that you dont want to be putting money in.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

im NOT tighter than most and i still follow your advice.

Barron

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I fold the flop. Being inside the box is often the best way to make lots of money.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being inside the box is often the best way to make lots of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it's hard to explain. The point is, the kid isn't creative at all. He would never do something that didn't seem like "playing poker the right way the way the super tight/nit rocks play" if that makes sense. He has a very simplistic I have good cards i'm supposed to play them like this how could you play those cards like that kind of mentality.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I don't overly like my play here. It was one of those instances I'm trying to 'add' things to my game and I took it too far.

As I said, Dan druff was running like [censored], and when somebody is in the mindset he was in, I find it much easier to outplay them one way or another postflop-whether it get them to spew bets or to fold, it's just easier.

I figured my flop call would be scary to a thinking opponent and I could take the pot away on the turn.

I thougt a mid-pair was the kid's most likely holding and i wanted to protect my hand and it would be an easy fold if any more money got put in was my turn thinking.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

Dan's got some weirdass hand that completely misses that that flop.

Young kid has some weirdass poket pair that can't beat the king.

You make a weirdass move that represents a set.

You should win.

I like this post because it has many cross levels of thought involved.

Lawrence

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

I don't play anywhere near this high, but I really like the fact that you did this when you were running and playing super-well and Dandruff was running shittily. I believe that you can possibly get a free showdown, get Dandruff to fold a king and/or get the nit in between to check the river (if he makes it that far).

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

Was your plan to raise a 7c turn too if Dan checked and kid bet? What if Dan bet Jack turn and kid called? I still don't get this flop call.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
Was your plan to raise a 7c turn too if Dan checked and kid bet? What if Dan bet Jack turn and kid called? I still don't get this flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

bump, I've been waiting for hours on an answer to this.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play anywhere near this high, but I really like the fact that you did this when you were running and playing super-well and Dandruff was running shittily. I believe that you can possibly get a free showdown, get Dandruff to fold a king and/or get the nit in between to check the river (if he makes it that far).

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt anyone running this bad folds top pair off a raggedy flop

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

OK, My thoughts before I read the other responses, Although I am not in your league,,,(thanks to the forum and all of you really good players I am getting there,,) I,m guessing dandruff folded and you caught the kid trying to steal,,...

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

The problem here is my only plan was to call the flop to see what kind of turn action happened and adapt. I hadn't quite decided yet. Folding on the turn was a still a distinct possibility.

I had been watching dandruff for quite awhile and he had a kind of I'm pissed at the board and pissed at running bad kind of tell bet that he sometimes made and I was watching.

So the flop call wasn't totally unbased, but still, it was me trying to outplay somebody a little bit too much.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]

You make a weirdass move that represents a set.


[/ QUOTE ]what are you talking about?

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop. Being inside the box is often the best way to make lots of money.

[/ QUOTE ]this is a good post.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

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I think this preflop call is bad against 2 guys who play well postflop, but I might be wrong. I'm pretty certain the flop call is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]jeez thats solid... i usually go threebets here.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

"The point is, the kid isn't creative at all. He would never do something that didn't seem like "playing poker the right way the way the super tight/nit rocks play" if that makes sense. He has a very simplistic I have good cards i'm supposed to play them like this how could you play those cards like that kind of mentality."

this is exactly what ive been fine tuning my game to lately with great results. hard work.

so how'd the hand turn out?

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this preflop call is bad against 2 guys who play well postflop, but I might be wrong. I'm pretty certain the flop call is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]jeez thats solid... i usually go threebets here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this making fun of my post? I'm so confused.

results
 

[ QUOTE ]
so how'd the hand turn out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dandruff mucked, kid called. River blanked and went check check. He rolled KQ, I mucked, old guy who wasn't involved in the hand asked the dealer to see my hand. The dealer flipped it and the kid said to me "damn I thought you had KJ for sure!"

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
He rolled KQ, I mucked, old guy who wasn't involved in the hand asked the dealer to see my hand. The dealer flipped it

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to perfect your mucking skills and shoot them into the muck pile.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

dont like it flop call?

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
old guy who wasn't involved in the hand asked the dealer to see my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]that is so sick.

Re: A questionable hand with DanDruff and another young player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this preflop call is bad against 2 guys who play well postflop, but I might be wrong. I'm pretty certain the flop call is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]jeez thats solid... i usually go threebets here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this making fun of my post?

[/ QUOTE ]no. sorry for the confusion. just saying im "at least" calling most of the time... id fold only if i thought the guy was really strong when he raised it.. you have the button. im much less likely to threebet it online where ppl fight harder on those Kxx/Axx flops.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He rolled KQ, I mucked, old guy who wasn't involved in the hand asked the dealer to see my hand. The dealer flipped it

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to perfect your mucking skills and shoot them into the muck pile.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were actually thrown onto the top of the muck pile but not wedged in the middle of it so the dealer pulled them off the top of the muck and flipped them.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
old guy who wasn't involved in the hand asked the dealer to see my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]that is so sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

etiquette or not, why is it sick? This is like the balk in baseball rule, i don't understand why so many people are aghast when asked to see cards. I could care less, and have asked once before when trying to figure out a tricky player.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I could care less, and have asked once before when trying to figure out a tricky player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder what Tommy has to say on this subject...?

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com