Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

Haven't played much hold'em in the last month or two and had a few quick questions on some hands.

Hand 1:

Been at the table about 2 orbits, but have observed about 4. Villian in this hand is very, very lag. Something like 85/25/3. Post flop he will pretty much always bet in position if checked two and if not he will sometimes raise a flop bet or play sherif to take it away on another street. I have just picked up on this and have switched gears to not be making auto continuation bets against him. I was going to conceed the hand and then decided to c/r him all in since it isn't that much of an overbet with his stack.

Do you see any EV here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($99)
BB ($99.25)
UTG ($32.85)
Hero ($100)
CO ($223)
Button ($48.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($8.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $50</font>



Hand 2:

Villian in this hand is loose and very passive. On a previous hand I limped with something like 87 on the button after 2 or 3 limpers. Flop was checked around with a flush draw out. On turn someone made a weak lead which was called by this villian I raised pot and got a fold by one and called by villian. His nut flush came on the river and he checked and made no extra money.

I have been very aggro at this table. Raising lots of pot's pre-flop and winning with cb's on the flop.

Good spot for an over bet or should I milk? There's a good chance villian was drawing and if so he's not calling any bet, but if not maybe the overbet will look best.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($92.95)
BB ($99.88)
Hero ($121)
Button ($12.97)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($19.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, BB calls $15.

River: ($49.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $80</font>

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

Hand 1. Meh. Doubt he's folding a pair. Read my location.

Hand 2. Nice. Hope he made aces up on river. If he didn't, and doesn't have lower set, then you probably wouldn't make anything anyways.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. Meh. Doubt he's folding a pair. Read my location.

Hand 2. Nice. Hope he made aces up on river. If he didn't, and doesn't have lower set, then you probably wouldn't make anything anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, but note that we're probably not bluffing in hand one.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

RE: Hand 1

I definetly agree he will rarely fold a pair. I was more thinking that his range is pretty close to any two cards and my hand might be good, but with his stack I can't get tricky so if I play I'm putting him to the test right there.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

I see this move as high variance, potentially slightly +EV, more likely slightly -EV move. I mean, you're really unlikely to be ahead of his hand range here. He probably has a small pair either in the hole or with the board. He probably doesn't fold it. You could be ahead, possibly, but if there is any edge it is pretty small. If anything, I think the EV here might come from his calling you with a worse ace high...

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

In hand 2, I'm confused what the overbet is for.

If he was drawing he folds. But if he paired an Ace, he will probably call anything, including a large overbet, since he's passive (does that mean calling station-esque)? Is that what's going on here?

I never use overbets and don't have any idea what they are used for or how to employ them.

Could someone explain their use, and why the OP wanted to use it in this hand? Thanks.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never use overbets

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very bad.

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone explain their use, and why the OP wanted to use it in this hand? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Use them whenever you think you have the best hand more than 50% of the time when called. And remember that people are about equally likely to call an overbet as they are to call a half pot bet. Check out this awesome hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">TWP ($219.60)</font>
BB ($237)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($209)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP ($85.40)</font>
Button ($543.55)

Preflop: TWP is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. TWP posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $7</font>, MP calls $7, Button calls $7, TWP (poster) calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($30) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
TWP checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $22</font>, MP calls $22, Button calls $22, TWP calls $212.60 (All-In), UTG calls $180 (All-In), MP calls $56.40 (All-In), Button folds.

Turn: ($545) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: ($545) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $545

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
TWP has 7c Tc (one pair, sevens).
UTG has 9c Jc (one pair, nines).
MP has 9s Js (one pair, nines).
Outcome: UTG wins $390.80. MP wins $143.60. TWP wins $10.60. </font>

Now read my location. Now realise that if I had a set, I play goot. For chrissakes: the dude OVERCALLED here with TPJK.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

Haha WTF!

Ok so I guess I need to start doing this stuff. What exactly do you mean by using overbets when you think you have the best hand "more than 50% of the time when called?"

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haha WTF!

Ok so I guess I need to start doing this stuff. What exactly do you mean by using overbets when you think you have the best hand "more than 50% of the time when called?"

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I was really only talking about river value bets such as in the OP, but same as any river value bet, they are only +EV if you are ahead greater than 50% of the time that your opponent calls them. If they fold, it is 0 EV. They they call and you lose more often than you win it is -EV.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

Ok cool, thanks.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see this move as high variance, potentially slightly +EV, more likely slightly -EV move. I mean, you're really unlikely to be ahead of his hand range here. He probably has a small pair either in the hole or with the board. He probably doesn't fold it. You could be ahead, possibly, but if there is any edge it is pretty small. If anything, I think the EV here might come from his calling you with a worse ace high...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow that's a little scary. Almost word for word what I was thinking in my head about this hand prior to posting. Certainly marginal and high variance. I thought he probably folds overs that don't contain an A and may make a big call with a lower ace. I'll probably hold off on this type of move, I think I'm going slightly overboard since I've played about 10,000 hands of PLO for the last 2 months and haven't been able to Puuuuuush in a long time [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

Too follow up a little on TWP's reply regarding the overbet esp. in regard to this hand. You basically hit the idea in your original ?

By passive, yes basically the villian in calling station esque at least with cards to come and any draw possible.

This type of player is really bad and easy to make money on, but if there's one thing they have going for them is that their hand range can be huge so you don't always know where you stand. Basically when they put lots of chips in the pot you know they have close to the nuts otherwise ???. So in this hand villian could have a draw, TP ish type hand, even a lower set.

So on the river it doesn't matter whether I bet 10 or 80 if he was drawing, he will fold. He might have made Aces up and will probably auto call with that so against that hand I leave money on the table by not pushing him in, and a set will always call. If he had the nut flush draw he just made top pair. I'm using my aggressive image to hopefully convince him to make a big call. This may work with Kx as well.

One thing to think about on river pushes is that sometimes even if they only call the push x% of the time, it might be higher EV then betting an amount you know they would call. You can play around with some assumptions to test this out pretty easily.

Ex. He calls with Kx 100% of the time if I bet 25. How often does he need to call an 80 bet for that move to be better?

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

you might be ahead of his range in hand 1 but you aren't ahead often enough to make that big raise if you have no fold equity against any pair. after all, without fold equity, all that raise is doing is charging him for his 6 outer, right?

I like check calling the flop, leading any paint turn, and check deciding on any other turn card.

Re: Two quick 6max hands. No pair no draw/Overbet with set on River
 

[ QUOTE ]
you might be ahead of his range in hand 1 but you aren't ahead often enough to make that big raise if you have no fold equity against any pair. after all, without fold equity, all that raise is doing is charging him for his 6 outer, right?

I like check calling the flop, leading any paint turn, and check deciding on any other turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, not sure. I need to re-download poker stove and play around with my equity on the flop. In the heat of the moment with no time to think about it I basically guessed that there were enough non-pair overcard combo's that I might be good pushing there and wanted to take it down then.

check call/lead might be good, but I don't think I like check/deciding on many turns though because this guy was so aggressive I am pretty sure he bets any turn and I can't tell if I'm good or not.

Easy
 

Relevant stacks
Seat 2: 253.75
Hero: 389.75

Dealt to Hero [ 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
2 folds.
Seat 6 raises (3) to 3
1 fold.
Seat 2 raises (11.50) to 12
Hero calls (11)
1 fold.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Seat 2 bets (24)
Hero raises (241.75) to 241.75
Seat 2 calls (217.75)
Seat 2 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
** Dealing River ** : [ T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]

He had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Another one
 

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
1 fold.
Seat 4 raises (3) to 3
2 folds.
Hero calls (2)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Hero bets (4)
Seat 4 calls (4)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
Hero checks.
Seat 4 checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Hero bets (93)
Hero is all-In.
Seat 4 calls (93)

He had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].